Thanks for the link

Are vaccines obsolete?

NO.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/5338113/Fears-measles-will-spread-during-holidays

“Almost all of the 76 confirmed cases were found in un-immunised people, Medical Officer of Health Richard Hoskins said.”

Anyone care to comment on why unvaccinated people are the ones catching measles?

“Almost all of the 76…”

Almost? So can you tell me why vaccinated people are catching measles? That’s a better question.

Vaccination is not magic. Like any other medical intervention it has a failure rate. A small number of people will not generate enough of an antibody response to confer long lasting protection.

Measles is the most contagious disease known. It is estimated that 90 percent of suseptible people will catch measles if they are in contact with someone who has the inection. With 76 confirmed cases, there must have been hundreds exposed in this outbreak…..

…and the unvaccinated people are the ones catching the disease.

Oh really? Do you know that there weren’t any unvaccinated people who were exposed and didn’t catch the disease.

Guess what happens when healthy unvaccinated people are exposed; they develope adequate antidbody responses. That is after all the job of the immune system.

Oh, and don’t forget to do a search on the internet for measles outbreak in highly vaccinated population.

“Oh really? Do you know that there weren’t any unvaccinated people who were exposed and didn’t catch the disease.”

So you are suggesting that the proportions reflect the fact that a lot more unvaccinated people were exposed to the virus than unvaccinated people?

Vaccinated outnumber unvaccinated people by about 8 to 1 in NZ, and yet in the current outbreak unvaccinated victims outnimber vaccinated victims by about 30 to 1.

30 x 8 = 240

Can you think of any mechanism by which unvaccinated people would be 240 times as likely to be exposed to measles as vaccinated people?

I can’t.

Guess what happens when healthy unvaccinated people are exposed; they develope adequate antidbody responses. That is after all the job of the immune system.

“Guess what happens when healthy unvaccinated people are exposed; they develope adequate antidbody responses. That is after all the job of the immune system”

Correct, brother.

Unfortunately their long-lasting protective antibody response develops while they are suffering from the unpleasant and potentially fatal viral illness known as measles.

“Oh, and don’t forget to do a search on the internet for measles outbreak in highly vaccinated population.”

Thanks for the tip.

Were you referring to this paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308208
(unvaccinated child imports measles to California, exposes 839 people, only unvaccinated people get sick)

Or something else?

Obsolete? Absolutely not – vaccines save millions of lives every year across the globe. A couple of months back a new vaccine was launched to combat pneumonia which claims the lives of 1.6 million children under the age of five years annually. Try telling the parents of those children that vaccines are obsolete….

A German study released in September 2011 of about 8000 UNVACCINATED children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have at least 2 to 5 times more diseases and disorders than unvaccinated children.

http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/10/09/new-study-vaccinated-children-have-2-to-5-times-more-diseases-and-disorders-than-unvaccinated-children/

Uncovered FDA Documents Reveal 26 More Gardasil Deaths.

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/10/uncovered-fda-documents-reveal-26-more.html

Vaccination deniers are either ignorant or evil. Very few are evil.

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”

http://naturalsociety.com/a-flu-vaccine-timeline-the-recent-history-revolving-around-vaccine-dangers/

““the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.””

Wow, that’s some pretty impressive mis-representation of what that study actually found.

If you actually read the study in question, you’d have read these findings…

“Efficacy of TIV was shown in eight (67%) of the 12 seasons analysed in ten randomised controlled trials (pooled efficacy 59% [95% CI 51—67] in adults aged 18—65 years).”

“Vaccine effectiveness was variable for seasonal influenza: six (35%) of 17 analyses in nine studies showed significant protection against medically attended influenza in the outpatient or inpatient setting. Median monovalent pandemic H1N1 vaccine effectiveness in five observational studies was 69% (range 60—93).”

So, in short, the flu vaccine isn’t always effective (which is understandable, given the mutability of the virus), but does provide protection against the flu for a significant proportion of the population.

The math is not hard.
“In this case, the 60 percent effectiveness claim births from an ongoing equation which transforms the numbers properly. First, 2.73% is taken for the people who got the flu in the control group. That number is then divided into 1.18% which stands for the percentage of people who got the flu in the treatment group. The answer comes out to be 0.43. You are now able to say that 0.43 is 43% of 2.73 (control group people who got the flu) and make the claim 57% are protected by the flu vaccine”
Is this wrong?

Sounds about right.

So, um, how does that prove your point, exactly? 57% of the people in a group that you would have expected to get the flu, didn’t get it after having a vaccine shot.

2.73 out of a hundred unvacinated people got the flu
1.18 out of a hundred vacinated people got the flu
The difference between the two groups is 1.55. So
“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”
Is this wrong?

apart from the rounding down of .05

Again, yes, there’s no faulting your maths.

The problem is that the maths you’re using is only relevant to that particular study, where the infection rate (if we use the unvaccinated population figure as a base rate) was 2.73%.

If that was always the case, then stating that the flu vaccine only stops 1.55 cases of flu per 100 people would be true.

But that’s not always the case, the infection rate can be much higher (and higher again in children).

If the infection rate was consistently 2.73%, then even a cast-iron 100% effective flu vaccine would ‘only’ protect 2.73 people per hundred from the flu.

And, of course, extrapolating out to larger numbers, even that difference between 1.18 and 2.73 becomes significant. Let’s say the population of NZ is 4M. At an infection rate of 2.73%, your total number of cases is 109200 people. Now, if we’d vaccinated everyone, according to the quoted study, that number of cases would drop to 47200. That’s 62000 people who have avoided the flu. Not worth it?

When we get infection rates up above 20% or 30%, then that figure obviously grows with it. Is this wrong?

Yes I agree.
But its not really a impressive mis-representation of what that study actually found.
It still is
“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”
http://naturalsociety.com/a-flu-vaccine-timeline-the-recent-history-revolving-around-vaccine-dangers/

Again, those figures are relevant to one study out of thirty-one analysed in the Lancet article. It is entirely misleading to make a general statement like “the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine” when the numbers you are referring to are quite specific to that one case.

As I tried to explain in my previous comment, if the base infection rate was 20%, as opposed to the 2.73% figure that was the case in that study group, then the numbers would be very different (with a much higher proportion of people having avoided flu because of vaccination).

Hence the way the numbers are reported in that study — it’s the average in expected infection rates v. actual infection rates that’s relevant, not the overall percentage of cases from each studies total population sample.

Truth is misleading?

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”

is a quote from here

http://naturalsociety.com/a-flu-vaccine-timeline-the-recent-history-revolving-around-vaccine-dangers/

about a study showing “the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”

You seem to have missed my previous comment.

yip those figures are relevant to one study, and thats the one study the quote is about.
The results showed, in this study, “the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”
You can change base infection rates, percentages and say If the numbers were different all you want. But still the results of this study show
“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”

Is this a true statement made about this study?

It’s entirely true when you put it in context.

It’s misleading without that context, even more so when you draw attention to that statement as per the naturalsociety articlewhere (where it’s stated in bold text at the end of a paragraph), and your original comment, where there’s no mention of the study at all (the inference being that it’s a general statement, applicable to all instances of flu vaccination).

Do you agree that without that context, people might come to the conclusion that the flu vaccine only prevents flu in 1.5 of every adults injected with flu vaccine all the time?

The statement was never out of context. Your perception might have made it out of context for you. But luckily I provided a link where you came to your own conclusion that the results of the study show

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”

When you say…

“that the results of the study show “the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.””

…the logical conclusion is that this a statistic that is applicable to the population as a whole.

Do you agree?

“…this is [a] statistic…”

“Conclusive link now admitted: swine flu vaccine causes chronic nervous system disorders”
“The Finnish government, in acknowledging this link, says it will pay for “lifetime medical care”

http://www.zimbio.com/Swine+Flu/articles/mpIMB5uQZ0t/Conclusive+link+now+admitted+swine+flu+vaccine

Do you agree? Or just changing the subject?

Actually, that swine flu link demonstrates the exact point I’ve been trying to make, when it states…

“Even the vaccine industry’s own research shows that flu shots only work on 1 out of 100 people, meaning they’re completely useless for 99 percent of those who take them…”

…when we’ve established that this was only the case in one particular study where the overall infection rate was quite low. Such is the way those sort of out-of-context quotes become established ‘facts’ in the anti-vax literature.

jab me – thanks for your postings (which make a lot more sense than the ‘rebuttals’)-I’ll go for a more natural (non-vaccine) approach to health

That was your logical conclusion when you read it. I don’t know about other people. It wasn’t my logical conclusion so I looked into it a bit more and the results of the study showed
“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine.”

Isn’t it good news that the Finnish government says it will pay for lifetime medical care.

“Even the vaccine industry’s own research shows that flu shots only work on 1 out of 100 people, meaning they’re completely useless for 99 percent of those who take them…”

yip you can find that here

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub4/abstract;jsessionid=40111D977C43ED435D09C240B977B6C2.d01t04?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+5+Nov+from+10-12+GMT+for+monthly+maintenance

“yip you can find that here”

yes, thanks for that. Considering I was quoting that article in this comment, chances are I’ve already seen it.

The point I’m trying to make doesn’t seem to be getting through. Try this scenario…

* Take an unvaccinated population of 100 people.

* Of those 100, 20 people get the flu.

* Now, If those people had all been vaccinated, how many people would you expect (using the numbers from study cited) to have gotten the flu. Not 20, but … ?

Nice scenario, but changing the numbers and results from a study to prove a point just doesn’t seem right to me. The results of the studies are what they are.

The only number I’ve changed is the number of people who have been infected with flu.

Do you agree it’s possible that an infection rate of 2.73% in an unvaccinated population is possible?

Over 100 Studies Highlight Vaccine Dangers

http://natural.tv/news/flashback-over-100-studies-highlight-vaccine-dangers/

“The only number I’ve changed is the number of people who have been infected with flu.” yes and that would change the results of the study. As I said before changing the numbers and results from a study to prove a point just doesn’t seem right to me.

“Over 100 Studies Highlight Vaccine Dangers”

This argument has been had several times on this site. No-one has argued that vaccines are 100% safe. The argument is that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the negatives — which, given the statistics, they do.

“As I said before changing the numbers and results from a study to prove a point just doesn’t seem right to me.”

Why so? The only number being changed is the base infection rate, which in the study cited, was 3%. It’s ridiculous to assume that that rate is a constant, and that in other years flu infection rates won’t be much higher. If we have a higher infection rate, what will the vaccination efficacy rates be, based on the results of the study cited?

As I’ve said before, by stating…

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine”

…without pointing out the population from which that conclusion only had an infection rate of 3% in the first place is incredibly misleading. Essentially, even if the vaccine was 100% effective, you could still end up saying that “the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 3 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine”.

It leads to the sort of articles (as I linked to earlier), where this crucial bit of contextual information is left out.

Now, do you agree that if people were to read this statement…

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine”

…they might believe that if 100 people contracted the flu, then only 1 or 2 people might have avoided it had everyone been immunised?

I agree there is no argument that vaccines are 100% safe thats why I posted the link. Its information.

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine” the original claim from the study was the flu vaccine is 60% effective, going on your point people might believe that the flu jab protects 60 out of 100 people, when the study actually showed
“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine”.

“As I said before changing the numbers and results from a study to prove a point just doesn’t seem right to me.”

“Why so?” I’ll let you work that out for yourself.

I agree there is no argument that vaccines are NOT 100% safe thats why I posted the link.

Why can’t you just answer a straight question?

Instead we’re back to your insistent misinterpretation of the study…

“the flu vaccine only prevents the flu in 1.5 out of every 100 adults injected with the flu vaccine…” WHEN THE INFECTION IS RATE IS 3 ADULTS OUT OF A 100.

“the original claim from the study was the flu vaccine is 60% effective.”

Yes. As the numbers from the study demonstrate perfectly well.

what misinterpretation?
The study showed that the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who got the flu was 1.5 people out of 100 people. You agreed.
Your lets make up the numbers scenario only changed the infection rate for unvaccinted people but you wanted to use the numbers from the study for the vaccinated people. Don’t you see a problem there?
Why don’t we try this. What is the infection rate for vaccinated people and what is the infection rate of nonvaccinated people for a given year/decade/century(you decide what time frame you want to do)

Gardasil in court: drug’s maker sued

http://sanevax.org/gardasil-in-court-drugs-maker-sued/

Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has paid out nearly $2Billion in damages to parents in America whose children were harmed by childhood vaccinations

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp078168

“The study showed that the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who got the flu was 1.5 people out of 100 people”

No it doesn’t. The study showed that the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who *got the flu* was 1.5 people out of 3 people. T

“What is the infection rate for vaccinated people and what is the infection rate of nonvaccinated people for a given year/decade/century(you decide what time frame you want to do)”

____

Comparative incidence of influenza A-prime in 1953 in completely vaccinated and unvaccinated military groups.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1623449/pdf/amjphnation00349-0042.pdf

“In a recent summary of previous vaccination tests carried out by members of the Commission on Influenza, 3 in which control and vaccinated subjects were mixed in the same study groups, the protection ratios found when the attack rates were as stable as those in the present study ranged from 3.6-1 to 5.2-1. In the present investigation a comparison of the incidence of influenza A-prime in a totally vaccinated population with that of a totally unvaccinated population yielded a crude protection ratio of 6.0-1 and a corrected ratio of 8.1-1. Protection ratios of 8.3-1 or greater 1, 2 have been observed in experiences with vaccination of total populations against influenza B.”

Those are “corrected” average weekly infection protection ratios.
The 8.1-1 ratio is
6.6 people per 1000 people average weekly infection(unvaccinated)
.81 people per 1000 people average weekly infection(vaccinated)
so the vaccine prevented on average 5.79 people out of 1000 people a week from becoming infected with the flu.

Well, yes that’s good, isn’t it?

And when we’re dealing with populations in the millions (or billions) all those 5.79 out of a 1000 (or 2.7 out of a 100 – take your pick), add up, don’t they?

Vaccination arrived in Europe from the East. There were two major differences between the Eastern and Western Methods. The Eastern Method involved taking a sample of the disease bacteria from a human, animals were not used. The disease was introduced to a healthy human by scarification (scratching the skin)

The Western Method cultures the serum in animals of various kinds and in fact diseased monkey tissues (liver) have been recovered from modern vaccines. This foul brew is administered by needle below the skin.

The skin is the bodies first line of defense so of course it is bypassed with all of the awful consequences for hundreds of thousands of people around the globe.

This thread is loaded with needle pushers and misguided people who do not know what they are talking about and allow the authorities to think for them.

I have no intention of arguing the toss with them .. go here start reading and get educated.
http://www.whale.to/a/children1.html

Unvaccinated kids are five times less likely to have asthma than the vaccinated, 2.5 times less likely to have skin problems and 8 times less likely to be hyperactive. http://www.ias.org.nz/prelim_survey_results.htm

According to the Cochrane review last year:
“Influenza vaccines have a modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost. There is no evidence that they affect complications, such as pneumonia, or transmission.

WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines.

The review demonstrated that reliable scientific evidence confirming that influenza vaccines are effective is thin and there is plenty of reason to suspect that there may be a manipulation of conclusions when the studies are funded by drug companies. The content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding.”

From

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/11/24/more-people-getting-flu-shots.aspx?e_cid=20111124_DNL_art_3

Precisely Bilbo ..

Ivor, a preliminary result from an online survey on an anti vaccination site is hardly scientific. The scientific consensus is pro vaccination.
Listen to the Quackcast podcast on the subject.

Scientific Results ? Quackpot podcast ? gazza the AMA plus the BMA have long proven histories of their shenanigans, they are a bunch of crooks.

Fiona Godlee of the BMJ has been uncovered over the Autism Affair during which another little crook called Deere smeared Dr Wakfield regarding Dr Wakefields study of the MMR Vaccine .. you will note of course that the vindication of Dr Wakefield has not received main stream press coverage yet when they tried to ruin Dr Wakefield it was blazoned in the main stream press for weeks.

Whats so special about science? it is just another way of seeing the world.

Thomas Szazz made an
observation.. from memory .. ‘If one is employed by another then one cannot call oneself a scientist because one must do the masters bidding or get the chop’. The proof of that lies in the Pharmaceutical Industy and by the way have you seen the latest Gardasil Slaughter.

Not all Scientists are poohbars but the good ones are few and far between. The majority of them have a very poor opinion of the general public in fact most of them that I have exchanged words with seem to think that they sit on the right hand of God ..

Please go here .. start reading and try to understand what the needle pushers are doing apart from amassing obscene profits whilst they deal death with the filth that they inject young babies with ..

Where is all of this great tidal wave of disease coming from? Why are young children getting cancer? .. they never used to .. where has all the asthma and diabetes come from ?

Where have all the wheel chairs come from ?

http://blog.imva.info/medicine/doctors-chains

The following exert was taken from the above website ..

Doctors in Chains

Antidepressants Cause Violence and Murder

In a final chapter of his book, Hypnotic States of Americans, Roy Masters asks, “When a crime is committed under hypnosis, who is the real perpetrator? Masters says that, “From time to time, something in the news calls our attention to something that our laws and our criminal justice system have not yet taken adequately into account. This is the very real fact that quite often the actual perpetrator of a crime is acting under the influence of a hypnotic state when the crime is committed, and does something the real person never would have done otherwise.”

Masters takes us to a question that addresses some delicate areas of life. Before we look at the imagination and the power of identification that is its throttle, we can ask one of the most important questions in medicine. Are doctors deliberately conditioned and hypnotized in medical school and held captive by their local medical boards?

Eustace Mullins, of the National Council for Medical Research writes, “I discovered that physicians, despite their great power, were themselves subjected to very strict controls over every aspect of their professional lives. These controls, surprisingly enough, were not wielded by any state or federal agency, although almost every other aspect of American life is now under the absolute control of the bureaucracy. The physicians have their own autocracy, a private trade association, the American Medical Association. This group, which is headquartered in Chicago, Illinois, had gradually built up its power until it assumed total control over medical schools and the accreditation of physicians.”

A broad-based attack on the fundamental paradigm/philosophy and commitment to “do no harm” to patients has been in operation for over a century. Pharmaceutical interests have betrayed the field of medicine and everyone in it by directing doctors and nurses to do harm, thus betraying their medical oaths. They have done this through a deep penetration of medical students’ imaginations just as a hypnotist does to his subjects.

There are actually many people on this planet that take pleasure
in hurting other people. Dr. Scott Peck in his book, Road Less
Traveled, said, “There really are people, and institutions made
up of people, who respond with hatred in the presence of goodness
and would destroy the good insofar as it is in their power to do so.”

Are pediatricians responsible for their brutal treatment of kids or are they under the hypnotic manipulation of their pharmaceutical masters? Who are the actual perpetrators of pharmaceutical terrorism, the ones with the poisons in their hands (vaccines are loaded with toxic substances) or those who create and market the dangerous drugs and pocket the change, taking it home to their mansions at night?

Dr. David Brownstein reminds us not to pay any attention to the propaganda about this years flu shots because of all the poisons in it. “The flu shot contains a mixture of egg proteins including bird contaminant viruses. It also contains polysorbate 80 (associated with infertility in animals), formaldehyde (a known carcinogen), Triton X100 (detergent), sucrose (sugar), and thimerisol (50% mercury by weight). The multi-dose flu vaccines still contain mercury which is the third most toxic item known to mankind. You should not ingest or inject any mercury containing products. Looking at this cornucopia of toxic ingredients should make it clear that it is best to avoid injecting the flu vaccine in any living being.”

I get the flu vaccine every year. I have had all the vaccines in the schedule plus a few more for travel in the tropics. I have not had a single illness In the last 12 years and, apart from appendicitis, I have had no serious illness ever in the last 60 years. So how come these “poisons” you claim are in vaccines have had no effect on me?

@gazza .. I did not make the claim, other medical men have done so .. it depends on the state of your immune system .. I have no knowledge of your life style or what you eat .. plus there are exceptions to every rule .. I used to think I was made of stainless steel .. I had a goodly dose of military needles for tropical climes and one cannot refuse!

But in the evening of my life I have had to fight all kinds of medical problems .. I have 3 children who are all married not a vaccine amongst them and this was not from want of trying on the part of the Authorities. They have never had a serious illness in their lives and this because their immune systems are intact.

The vaccination schedule for young babies nowadays is a horrendous assault on a wee thing who does not have a developed immune system they take their immunity from mothers milk.

How good the mothers immunity or damage redounds to the child.

Answer me .. where are all the childhood cancers coming from ? where are all these children’s .. diseases coming from ? It was never so bad even as a child in the slums of a large industrial city in the UK. Two of my family are school teachers with many of the kids propped up with chemicals.

Ritalin (speed) are common currency in school playgrounds.

Nah I have more faith in nature than bumbling compromised so called scientists .. the truth is there in plain view .. if one can put aside the prejudice .. Nature made you, she has the the blue prints.

Scientific hypothesis and theory come and go and eventually get buried with the progenitor .. personally it seems to me that they draw the wrong conclusions from what they think are facts.

I am not prepared to try to convince you .. try the websites of which I have provided the URL’s .. if your mind is open then it will change.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Ivor

Psst gazza .. do you know that the appendix is part of the immune system. When the whole of ones system is out of whack the appendix gets inflammed or starts to rot.

The appendix operation used to be all the vogue alongside another piece of the immune system called the tonsils .. according to the science of the day such appendages were considered to be outmoded and part of the caveman’s physiology but the medical men could not tell us what the purpose was .. only that it was infected and must come out .. Kaching Kaachingaling went the cash register as the bits went into the bucket.

As is usual with anti vaccination nut jobs, Ivor is confused about the connection between vaccination and the immune system.
Vaccination primes your immune system so that it is ready to quickly deal with the infection. Without an effective immune system vaccination is worthless. Hence the need to protect those around you, like the very old, the very young and the ill, by being vaccinated. The successfully vaccinated person’s immune system deals with an infection before he/she can become infectious.
It is really quite simple. Anti vaccers must be really stupid if they can’t understand that.

@gazza ..

you sound like a pharmageddon plant.

I know that the baby vaccination schedule is meant to prime the immune system .. after all that is the official story line.

You display your own stupidity with that remark because a baby does not have an immune system .. the baby has to grow one .. and until it has grown one .. it gets its immunity from the mothers milk.

Go here and get educated.
http://www.whale.to/a/children1.html

One more thing gazza.. a naturally acquired immunity is for life.

Why is it necessary to administer more animal filth as booster shots.?

Somebody is making more money kaaching kaachingaling goes the cash register.

Where has all the childhood cancer come from ?

the 5.79 people out of 1000 that the flu prevented getting the flu maybe got a benefit from the vaccine. What about the rest?
Of course when you increase the population base the numbers go up, but it still is 5.79 out of 1000 people on average that the vaccine prevented from getting the flu, no matter what the population base is.
so now what were those risks again?

> where are all the childhood cancers coming from ?

Since 1956, childhood cancer has remained at the 5.79 people out of 1000 that the flu prevented
> getting the flu maybe got a benefit from the vaccine.
> What about the rest?

That’s 5.79 per 1000 PER WEEK, remember — not the total for the entire period. And those other people didn’t get the flu. I don’t quite see your point. As I’ve stated a couple of times now, those 5.79 per 100 per week, or 2.73 per 100 per season, or however you want to measure it, is equivalent to thousands (or hundreds of thousands, or millions, depending on the population in question) of people who avoid getting the flu.

> Of course when you increase the population
> base the numbers go up

Yes they do.

> so now what were those risks again?

All the usual risks that go with catching the flu, that could be avoided with a vaccine shot…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Prognosis

Gah, system mangled my comment. Let’s do that top bit again…

“where are all the childhood cancers coming from ?”

Childhood cancer rates have remained at < 1% of all cancer incidents since childhood specific reporting began in 1956.

Childhood male cases increased from then until the 1970s, and have since plateaued. Female rates have continued to increase, albeit at low levels, but it's worth noting that in both cases mortality rates have nearly halved for both sexes.

http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/0/8e1d731682cab3d9cc256c7e00764a23?OpenDocument

Cancer Control
in New Zealand
http://www.moh.govt.nz/cancercontrol

Cancer is a major health issue for New Zealanders. One in three New Zealanders will have some experience of cancer, either personally or through a relative or friend.

Cancer is the country’s leading cause of death (29.8 percent) and a major cause of hospitalisation.

In 2008 more than 20,300 people were diagnosed with cancer in New Zealand and 8566 people died from the disease.

===================================

@Blue sky thinking .. My question was .. Where are all the Childhood cancers coming from ? well, where are they coming from ? I look at the babies vaccination schedule and understanding that the baby is still growing an immune system until at least 2 years of age.

Then I know where its coming from!! But we have a long fight ahead because Vaccination is a cornerstone and a great profit maker of the Western Medical System these medical men have turned the Hippocratic Oath upside down .. ‘First do no harm was suddenly turned into numbers and risk benefit analysis.

That the medical stats and many clinical trials are deliberately fudged by Pharmageddon is common knowledge around the internet.

Your figures I would not touch with a barge pole .. I have a PDF file from the NZ Health Dept. Health Stats since 1968 until 2008 and the figures appear very different to what you assert.

“Where are all the Childhood cancers coming from ? well, where are they coming from ?”

Probably the same place they’ve always come from. You would think if there was a causal link between childhood cancer and vaccinations, then childhood cancer rates would have sky-rocketed over the last 60 years. They haven’t.

“Your figures I would not touch with a barge pole. I have a PDF file from the NZ Health Dept. Health Stats since 1968 until 2008 and the figures appear very different to what you assert.”

Care to share that PDF?

And surely my source for statistics was the Ministry of Health. Your source is the NZ Health Department, another name for the Ministry of Health. You wouldn’t touch your own stats with a bargepole, perhaps?

@Blue Sky. re the PDF .. sure I will share it .. lots and lots of tables. Is there any way on this site to upload things such as PDF and Image files ?

You never miss a Pharmageddon chance do you because you push some sizzling porkies for example ..
============================

Probably the same place they’ve always come from. You would think if there was a causal link between childhood cancer and vaccinations, then childhood cancer rates would have sky-rocketed over the last 60 years. They haven’t.

===============================

Children in the 1940,s rarely if ever got Cancer and if they did we never heard of it. and the Cancer figures for the 1968 to 2008 PDF show a different story, Cancer is a galloping bot and increasing annually .. it is common knowledge about the tampered with clinical trials and stats .. Plos Medicine has uncovered dozens.

If you would be so good as to let me have a copy of your info source then perhaps we can compare them.

=========================
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/diseases.html
VACCINE DISEASE
Citations Vaccine Disease Racket

Some of the diseases caused by vaccination. It is testimony to the power of the medical cartel (derived from big brother) that they have got away with admitting just a handful. eg Chronic arthritis, Thrombocytopenic Purpura, & polio. Even when they pay out, through government, for diseases (or death) such as MS, they never actually admit, legally, any connection, and may even fix things (one euphemism used: “science has moved on”) so that past payouts are now deemed not connected to any vaccine (read). See what vaccine victims go through and how they intimidated transverse myelitis experts. They have circled the wagons to deny vaccine autism, it could be the last time they manage to suppress the truth about the real effects of vaccination, let’s hope it sinks the whole stinking racket. You can easily see the lies when they say MMR is safe even though they pay out for deaths.]
============================

The list of diease,s is horrific the authorities have owned up to a few of the disease,s .. so far .. haw haw haw! We are hearing less and less about the tin foil hats and conspiracy theorists because the biggest conspiracy is the Vaccine Scam. A number of prominent Doctors in America have stood up and denounced the system and as is usual, like the Dr Wakefield affair. As for the rest what a sorry bunch they are exchanging first do know harm into risk/benefit analysis AKA the numbers game ..

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein

Maths great for mechanical things but mankind is not a mechanical thing.

Blue Sky I note your methodology and I am led to the conclusion that you are a Troll .. and from personal experience I do not give my Email Addy to Trolls so that may cause a little difficulty if one cannot upload here. If that is the case then I suggest that you collect your own copy from the ministry of health.

“@Blue Sky. re the PDF .. sure I will share it .. lots and lots of tables. Is there any way on this site to upload things such as PDF and Image files ?”

No. A link to the MoH site where it can be downloaded is fine, or there are dozens of file-sharing websites available to which you could upload it and make it available.

“If you would be so good as to let me have a copy of your info source then perhaps we can compare them.”

I linked to it above. Here it is again…

http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/0/8e1d731682cab3d9cc256c7e00764a23?OpenDocument

“Children in the 1940,s rarely if ever got Cancer and if they did we never heard of it.”

So if we never heard of it, how do you can you say they ‘rarely, if ever got Cancer’? As I pointed out earlier, reporting of childhood cancer and cancer-related mortality rates didn’t start until the 1950s. Any theories on rates before that time are pure speculation.

Given that cancer rates haven’t increased significantly since reporting did start, while vaccination coverage has increased from nearly nothing to a significant proportion of the entire population over the same time, it seems difficult to see how you could come to the conclusion that vaccinations cause childhood cancer. Surely the massive increase in the number of children receiving vaccinations would result in a similar, proportional increase in children developing cancer. It hasn’t.

“a preliminary result from an online survey on an anti vaccination site is hardly scientific. The scientific consensus is pro vaccination.”

deary me…I think someone needs to do a little more reading – the Cochrane review is decidedly scientific in their methods and are not “anti vaccination” – as for where the results are cited, that is completely irrelevant (as any *scientifically* minded person understands….)- as for “online survey”…what a remarkable piece of bullshit.

Cancer Control
in New Zealand
http://www.moh.govt.nz/cancercontrol

Cancer is a major health issue for New Zealanders. One in three New Zealanders will have some experience of cancer, either personally or through a relative or friend.

Cancer is the country’s leading cause of death (29.8 percent) and a major cause of hospitalisation.

In 2008 more than 20,300 people were diagnosed with cancer in New Zealand and 8566 people died from the disease.
=============================

The above is taken from the NZ Health Dept website and do ya know Blue Sky you excrete enough sizzling porkies to run a sizable BBQ and you would definitely win the Liar Liar Pants on fire contest.

However for the money that the trolls are paid by Pharmageddon to spam health discussions one may consider that it provides for a continuous supply of Porkies filled with bull poop.

You would laughable were the subject not so serious.

The original message in this thread spoke of Autism .. Dr Wakefield has been vindicated and all the nasties who tried to do him down .. The Lancet .. British Medical Journal and that little rat called Deere have been exposed as liars. However I see naught in the Main Stream Press about his vindication .. I wonder why ? Roflmao!

http://www.ageofautism.com
above is a Britsh Site and extremely good the investigative articles are excellent.

If you want to know about the anger and the pain of the parents and the traumatic stories of the children and if you need to be educated about Autism and the vindication of Dr Wakefield then it is all there.

Plus the proof that Vaccination causes Autism is there .. and which is a world wide tide of misery and suffering. I hope the shareholders of pharmageddon rot from toes to the neck .. The head and brain are already rotten.

@ Blue Sky .. the Url for the data is here http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/indexmh/dataandstatistics-subjects-cancer-historicalsummary-1948-2008

“Blue Sky you excrete enough sizzling porkies to run a sizable BBQ ”

Can you please explain where I’ve told these lies?

Ivor, the document you have linked to — “Cancer: Historical summary 1948–2008″ — doesn’t have any specific statistics for childhood cancer rates.

It’s also interesting to note that according to that document, the cancer mortality rate was actually lower in 2008 than it was in 1948.

Cancer is the country’s leading cause of death (29.8 percent) and a major cause of hospitalization.

The above is a cut and paste from the MOH website so the figures quoted are recent.

If I then look at the 1948 figures and compare them with 2008 and in the light of the above statement by the MOH then there is a strong smell of rotten fish and massaged figures. I was 10 years old in 1948 and cancer in the slums was not even on the radar. The medics were busy ripping out tonsils and appendix. The diseases of the day in the slums were impetigo, diphtheria and scarlet fever oh and of course infected tonsils and inflamed appendix. The point of the PDF that I suggested you look at was because of the continual porkies that you slip over as fact.

Now in terms of massaged figures. Hospitals here send people home to die. I was in the discharge lounge when one elderly gent died in there waiting for his discharge papers. The person who had come to collect him had to point out to the Dr who was preparing discharge papers that his Dad was dead.

Now apart from what some right wing yanks have labelled us all as useless eaters .. then what is the reason for such callous treatment ? .. if they die at home rather than in the hospital then such deaths are treated differently to in hospital deaths as far as the statistics go.

For example American military deaths in Iraq the figures are massaged e.g. if the death occurs in transit from Iraq to the military hospital in Germany that is not considered to be war death .. this little semantic jigajig of course allows the authorities to lie to the American people and of course that is exactly what they do.

Here is NZ they run vaccination drives with substances that have proven harmful in other nations e.g. Gardasil and here in NZ they even want to give it to young boys. Why is this ?

Africa is the real killing grounds with magic pills and dripping needles. The companies engaged in the Pharmageddon agenda just seem to go at will and do what they want. They were responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa.

Nahh these people are thoroughly evil in what they do. They know what they are doing. Corporate Murder with impunity and immunity.

The Cancer thing is another banana skin which is detracting from the reason for this thread which was Autism ..

One more thing about medicine and stats by numbers. The world population is said to be 7 Billion now .. I wonder what it was in 1948?

“The point of the PDF that I suggested you look at was because of the continual porkies that you slip over as fact.”

Ironic in that you initially cited the document as a source for your suggestion that there was some link between childhood cancer rates and vaccinations. The document shows no such link. But’s let’s slip over that, shall we?

And you still haven’t given a single example of these ‘porkies’ that I’m supposedly guilty of.

“One more thing about medicine and stats by numbers. The world population is said to be 7 Billion now .. I wonder what it was in 1948?”

Apparently it was between 2 and 3 billion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

“The Cancer thing is another banana skin which is detracting from the reason for this thread which was Autism ..”

So why did you bring it up?

Your porkies relate to some of your statements in support of your argument I do not have the time or inclination to go back over your comments.

I bought the matter of cancer up because I wanted to show how shaky the Vaccine Hypothesis is because that is all it is. A hypothesis which is a death sentence for hundreds of thousands of people around the world

We now have a case of scores of new diseases and an emergent branch of medicine to investigate these emerging diseases .. where have all these diseases come from? Including a great increase in cancer.

Children are part of the human population so it is reasonable to assume that some of those figures relate to children.

Autism is a proven disease of vaccination now please poodle off and examine the figures given about children and why so many are saddled with asthma and ADD. No cures are offered for any of the conditions just palliative medicine.

The little puffers that are supplied for the asthma eventually overwhelm the lungs and collapse them .. and the speed that they provide the ADD sufferers with also have nasty side effects and even worse social effects because the speed is being peddled in streets and school playgrounds.

Where has all this shit come ? .. if I consider the diseased monkey livers that have been found in some of the vaccines. Then of course there are various adjuvants that used which are labelled as carcinogens, then what you have had to say in support of vaccination rings hollow in face of the evidence.

How many TV adverts are there showing little children who have to undergo chemo and radiation treatment?

Must be a lot of money in childhood cancer .. I am led to believe that long TV adverts cost plenty of kaaching kaaching-aling.

Starship Hospital .. it cost a lot of money to build .. it must have been needed to cope with all the sick kids.

Ivor – a lot of food for thought for those who will think.

Thank you.

“Your porkies relate to some of your statements in support of your argument I do not have the time or inclination to go back over your comments.”

So, no actual evidence, then.

“Where have all these diseases come from? Including a great increase in cancer.”

People are living longer. Cancer becomes more likely the longer you live. The ‘great increase’ in cancer (despite the figures you supplied that shows cancer mortality rates at about the same rates as 1948) is part and parcel of having a much longer-lived population.

“Children are part of the human population so it is reasonable to assume that some of those figures relate to children.”

The specific statistics relating to childhood cancer rates show no significant increase in those rates over the last 60 years, and a drop in mortality rates.

“Autism is a proven disease of vaccination…”

Proven by …. what? More of this imaginary evidence that you can’t be bothered producing?

“How many TV adverts are there showing little children who have to undergo chemo and radiation treatment?”

Not having a TV, I couldn’t tell you. Is this really what you base your assumptions on the state of childhood health on? The number of TV adverts featuring children with cancer?

http://www.naturalnews.com/034269_global_health_HPV_vaccines.html

NaturalNews) At its recent board meeting in Bangladesh, the GAVI Alliance, formerly known as the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunizations, announced plans to bring the deadly human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines Gardasil (Merck & Co.) and Cervarix (GlaxoSmithKline) into the third world. A pro-vaccination group backed by the World Bank, UNICEF, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and the vaccine industry, GAVI’s stated goal is to vaccinate 240 million children by 2015.

As many as two million women and girls in nine unidentified developing countries could soon receive one of the two HPV vaccines, even though HPV is potentially linked to only one percent, of all cervical cancers, according to some reports (http://washingtonexaminer.com/node/...). The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), however, has stated that “HPV is not associated with cervical cancer” at all (http://www.naturalnews.com/022404.html).

And yet the vaccine industry through its various “nonprofit” and government partnership continues to push the deadly vaccine on young girls, women, and now even young boys around the world, despite the fact that it does not work and can cause horrific side effects. According to the latest figures released by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Gardasil alone has caused more than 20,000 adverse events and 71 known deaths since it was first unveiled (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/va...).

These figures are actually higher when taking into account the 26 additional deaths concealed in US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) documents that were recently exposed by Judicial Watch, a public watchdog group (http://www.infowars.com/uncovered-f...). SaneVax, a vaccine group that tracks HPV vaccine cases, says there have actually been more than 23,300 adverse events and 103 deaths caused by HPV vaccines, to date (http://sanevax.org/).

With all this in mind, it is concerning, to say the least, that GAVI is advocating that the poorest women and children in the world be subjected to this chemical poison. Nevertheless, the group is reportedly working on a deal with both Merck and GSK to get the vaccines at a reduced rate, and the UN World Bank will be issuing bonds to countries in order to fund the whole HPV vaccine campaign.

A GAVI press release also states that the group will push rubella vaccines along with the HPV vaccines. The goal is to vaccinate 588 million children against rubella by 2015 (http://www.gavialliance.org/library...)

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034269_global_health_HPV_vaccines.html#ixzz1f4k0WTZQ

Thank you Bilbo .. and food for thought it is .. once one enters the rabbit hole one finds vast warrens of the criminal malfeasance by government and its depts.

What is being done is genocide in the name of population control Henry Kissinger laid the game out for all to see .. well some of us did see and we also saw where govts laid out millions upon millions for a useless flu vaccine that was supposed to protect us all from swine flu and chicken flu.

How odd that we never saw any govt try to sue pharmagedon to recover the money laid out for a scam.

But hey its only the taxpayer who has to pay ..

Blue sky thinking as you walk around looking at the blue sky (fulled with chemtrails) the last thing you are doing is thinking
Pharmaceuticals companies are not in the business of doing themselves out of business, wake up

Lol Jason ..

Speaking of chemtrails which are all linked to the Matrix.

A very sassy and alert woman called Clare Swinney runs the Northland Chemtrail Watch .. very little gets past her eagle eye.

Somehow Clare was inducted into a psychiatric ward for believing that the American 9/11 was an inside job. Which of course when one sees past the US Government explanation (The real conspiracy) and examines the real evidence then one is left with the knowledge that it was indeed an inside job.

The jerk that pulled Clare in was some Canadian Psychiatrist and the reason he used was Clares insistence that it was indeed an inside job.

Well once in there Clare went to work with the staff by presenting them with the evidence that it was an inside job .. The Canadian was whisked back to an increasingly dubious looking Canada and Clare got released with abject apologies.

The point of this is .. WTF has NZ got to try to shut someone up who is telling the truth?

Its like the Chemtrails that Clare is currently battling against the Govt refuses to acknowledge it is happening.

These people are trying to dictate how people think and dumb the population with Fluoride in the water and now they want to add Lithium a chemical used in Bi-Polar disorders .. and be sure there are plenty of those because of the nefarious actions of Pharmageddon.

Yes Clair is great and i look forward to meeting her one day,our so called Govt refusing to acknowledge chemtrails shows us just how rotten to the core it is,off topic but i feel that fill goff has been payed off to run labour into the ground to give national the power again,why else have such a dick as leader(just my thoughts on the election)

Chem trails? Ha ha ha. Next you will be telling us that homeopathy works!
Ho ho ho.

http://www.naturalnews.com/034289_Afghanistan_opium_trade.html

(NaturalNews) Afghanistan is, by far, the largest grower and exporter of opium in the world today, cultivating a 92 percent market share of the global opium trade. But what may shock many is the fact that the US military has been specifically tasked with guarding Afghan poppy fields, from which opium is derived, in order to protect this multibillion dollar industry that enriches Wall Street, the CIA, MI6, and various other groups that profit big time from this illicit drug trade scheme.

Prior to the tragic events of September 11, 2001, Afghanistan was hardly even a world player in growing poppy, which is used to produce both illegal heroin and pharmaceutical-grade morphine. In fact, the Taliban had been actively destroying poppy fields as part of an effort to rid the country of this harmful plant, as was reported by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on February 16, 2001, in a piece entitled Nation’s opium production virtually wiped out (http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...).

But after 9/11, the US military-industrial complex quickly invaded Afghanistan and began facilitating the reinstatement of the country’s poppy industry. According to the United Nations Drug Control Program (UNDCP), opium cultivation increased by 657 percent in 2002 after the US military invaded the country under the direction of then-President George W. Bush (http://www.infowars.com/fox-news-ma...).

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034289_Afghanistan_opium_trade.html#ixzz1fGSlRLn4

Hey Garry .. obviously you know nothing about Homeopathy or even the theory behind it.

And if I hear another word about Avogadros theory in any attempt to discredit the Modality then be warned trolls are dog tucker and they just love mutton.

So smarty pants explain to me why Homeopathy does not work ..

You want to know why it doesn’t work? For the same reason that magic beans don’t grow into giant beanstalks leading to a giant’s castle in the sky. Belief in homeopathy is even more moronic than belief in acupuncture , which also doesn’t work.

Tut tut .. the challenge was gazza .. tell me why Homeopathy does not work .. and we can deal with Acupuncture later, but somehow I think you know as much about Acupuncture as you do about Homeopathy. I am not impressed with your initial reply.

And you will not find any answers in the handbook .. ‘Trolldom 101′ or even Hasbara 101.

Homeopathy doesn’t work because it relies entirely on magic. I know what the supposed mechanism is behind it, but it is all bunkum and completely unsupported by any credible evidence….like chem trails, lizard people, acupuncture, and the dozens of other crackpot nonsenses supported by this blog.
You are either a shill for ‘big CAM’ or just plain ignorant. I am assuming that you are not just stupid.

Just as I suspected gazza you have no knowledge of Homoeopathy and have never tried it.

Let us deal with your Magic pejorative first .. Homoeopathy works it works with skeptics .. young children and is very effective with animals .. I feel it reasonable to reject the placebo effect in such cures .. so even were it magic as you state .. it works!! ..

Magic is how I feel at the joy and delight when people have been cured of long standing ailments that orthodox medicine was unable to cure but were making oodles of boodle from the patient and the govt subsidies.

That is why Homeopathy is available on the National Health Service in Britain, it only costs the taxpayer a fraction of the orthodox treatment.

The workings of the human body (not mind) is electro chemical. The human aura is a result of this. All circuits in which elctricity flows shows a detectable electro radiation. An electric transformer is a demonstration of that phenomenon.

People who have limbs amputated quite often suffer a phenomenon called ‘Phantom Limb’ it feels to the amputee that the missing limb is still there.

The reason is that the electro magnetic body sheath (aura) is still complete. For example researchers have torn a living leaf in half and then discovered that the kirlian photograps show that the leaf aura is still complete.

I have a visitor so I will continue this a little later.

Dr Rupert Sheldrake had put forward a theory in another field of research in which electromagnetic resonance was the core .. I feel that it explains the Phantom Limb phenomenon adequately.

I have sidetracked a little in order to explain the electro magnetic hypothesis of Homoeopathy.

Homeopathy uses many different levels of dosage ranging from 1:10 or one part plant and ten parts menstruum which can be spirits of wine or pure water for the liquid remedies. These dosages can be attenuated to the point that (according to Avogadro,s Hypothesis) not a single molecule of the physical substance remains. What remains is its electro magnetic signature (provable)

To be continued ..

This signature or vibration can be transmitted by methods other than Homeopathy but lead to an understanding of Dr Hanhneman,s work.
For example try the following URL for a real eye opener.

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

The higher the potency of the remedy then one starts to enter another level because the higher potencies can do a lot of damage because they are organ system specific and are like a surgeons scalpel .. high potencies are normally only used by experienced practitioners of the art.

There is much more that I could add but I would be at the keyboard all day .. however gazza if you have brickbats or questions then fire away and I will do my best to give you an intelligible answer.

Electromagnetic resonance? What a load of pseudo scientific clap trap you have just spouted. You obviously have no idea about science or medicine. There is no point in trying to educate you … The school system has so obviously failed you.
Homeopathy does not work in people or animals . Fact.

It is Electromagnetic resonance that underlies the working of step up and step down electrical transformers common knowledge.

gazza I cannot take you seriously but I have to say that your potty mouth is a disgrace to your mother.

You have demonstrated your constipation and high blood pressure with Homeopathy.

So come on let me take the rise out of you with Acupuncture ..

Psst gazza .. could you please back up your so called fact with some facts ?

Homeopathy is available on the National Health Service in Britain, it only costs the taxpayer a fraction of the orthodox treatment.

Search for homeopathy at skeptoid.com

You will find answers to all your questions there.
sciencebasedmedicine.org is another source of reliable information for you.

Learn and enjoy.

So gazza that,s who you rely on .. the skeptics and science based medicine .. those are the people that were involved with Stephen Barret of Quackbusters well Barret and a few more of his cronies had their feathers burnt and are now nearly extinct .. the full story of that downfall may be found here ..

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/WisconsinWar/who_are_these_so.htm

If you follow the money you will see where these people are coming from. They are funded by Pharmageddon. But no chance of you opening your mind is there?

Medical Science is just an old boys club and one may see where they rip off ideas from the Alternative medicine field plus the scandalous vaccination fraud and their cancer treatment is an absolute disgrace what with cutting and radiation burning and the chemotherapy ..

By the way these people are now offering a 5 year survival rate for certain types of cancer. There are many proven cancer cures out there but orthodoxy make it illegal to claim a cure for cancer. Because they cannot do it themselves.

Yet the documented cures by alternative medicine are numerous. I have already posted evidence of fraud by orthodox medicine and its fraud that costs hundreds of thousands of lives here is another one and its a real shocker the American Centre of Disease Control, a Federal body who has been tasked with protecting the nations health and instead it appears that they have sold out to Pharmageddon.

I have already pointed out the BMC fraud over Autism .. like gazza how much evidence do you need to understand that scientific medicine is a money making scam.

And when a group of people think that they know better than Nature then one also understands the Greek saying .. those whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad. Below is a cut and paste from the Bolen Report website about the CDC malfeasance.

================================
I suspect, after that, that all hell is going to break loose for, without doubt, with what internal memos Hooker already has gotten, it is already clear the in an order of magnitude, EVERY one of those CDC studies was faked with the intent of covering up the facts about how dangerous vaccines really are.

Let me repeat that – EVERY one of the CDC studies showing the so-called safety of mercury in vaccines has been intentionally faked, so as to lead the American Public, and every entity worldwide that relies on the CDC for information, to believe that mercury in vaccines is safe – it is not.

Why did the CDC employees do that? I will explain below. Keep reading.

Why would anyone knowingly cover up the dangers of Thimerosal in vaccines?

Here is what I suspect: There are THREE main reasons:

http://www.bolenreport.com/

Despite Igor’s ranting, homeopathy does not work.

Regarding the British situation you may enjoy this:

“The Evidence Check
Evidence of efficacy
123. In Chapter 2 we reached the conclusion that homeopathy was not efficacious and any perceived effectiveness was in fact solely due to the placebo effect. When we took oral evidence from Professor Woods, Chief Executive of the MHRA, we asked his view on the efficacy of homeopathy and he responded:
One has to look at the totality of the evidence and in my view there is no single piece of evidence that gives that reassurance. [...] In aggregate I do not think there is anything there that one would take as robust evidence of an effect over and above the placebo effect.146″

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/45/45.pdf

It can even be argued that the placebo effect is ineffective too.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-placebo-myth/

Gary, the man that gave his opinion is in the same camp as the BMJ a real bunch of rascals together.

It is quite obvious that you and your other names that you use on here are paid to spam these forums.

The final proof of such maters is to try Homoeopathy. It is blatantly obvious that you have not. Homeopathy is an effective and individualized medicine unlike orthodox medicine where the dangerous risk benefit pills are a one size fits all and from the death rate it becomes obvious that one size does not fit all and for that reason homoepathy cannot be tested by the orthodox methodology..

Plos medicine have shown and we have been shown by the weekly false clinical trails what a mountain of fraud that orthodox medicine is built on.

How any sane person can believe anything that comes out of orthodoxy is hard to believe .. butter is bad .. good cholesterol, bad cholesterol .. eggs are bad for one and so is salt and yet when it comes dietetics these people seem to think a big mac or finger licken chicken is the answer .. what a venal set up.

Truth and fair dealing should have no reason to commit the crimes that orthodoxy does. Here is another of the shady professions shenanigans to try to prop up a collapsing scientific wall..

Maryland Board of Physicians May Not Survive Attack on Mark and David Geier…

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Sunday, December 4th, 2011

The Maryland Board of Physicians woke up last week to find that the
Maryland legislature, which they thought, I guess, was completely
asleep, had quietly, and very thoroughly, conducted a formal
investigation of the board’s operation. The legislative committee in charge of this secret investigation issued a two-hundred page report scalding the department, virtually declaring the board incompetent and working against the interests of the people of Maryland.

In a moment I will show you flaming excerpts from this report.

Last April 28th, 2011 famous mercury issue attorney Bob Reeves had called me, asking me to look into, as a Crisis Management Consultant, the Maryland Geier situation and give him, and the Geiers, my Opinion and make some Recommendations. I did that, both publicly and privately. You can read my original public analysis by clicking the links.

One thing I had pointed out, both publicly and privately, was that,
in my opinion, the board, itself, was operating, not for the people
of Maryland, but for special interests (the vaccine construction) – I
pointed out specifics. I pointed out that licensing boards, despite
their own ideas of how they operate, do NOT operate without
oversight, and that whatever that oversight in Maryland was, it
needed to be activated immediately.

To read the entire article click on http://www.bolenreport.com or
http://www.bolenreport.com/Geier/marylandmedboardexpose.htm

Tim Bolen

http://www.bolenreport.com

http://www.quackpotwatch.org

Thanks Gary and gazza – you’ve given Ivor the perfect excuse to provide us with some great info, which he certainly did.

As for Placebo effect not working, I think that modern medicine depends upon it heavily – eg, have a look at ‘Reckoning With Risk – learning to live with uncertainty’ by Steven Pinker, 2002 – a lovely section there devoted to modern medical professionals and their acknowledgement of the placebo/white coat effect and how important it is that it is – to quote from a ‘president of a medical association’ – “Most prescriptions have no proven effect, but when the patient applies the ointment, the doctor, the patient and the pharmaceutical company are happy” (p.19).

Bilbo, did you take the time to read and understand …
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-placebo-myth/

??

Igor can present all the nonsense he likes. It doesn’t change the simple fact that homeopathy doesn’t work.

Igor, I am not paid to comment here … I do it for my own amusement and to waste your time. I used to think that maybe my comments would help some of you to see reason, but I’ve given up on that now. Reasoned logical thinking is not the default mode for people and has to be learned … Igor, Bilbo and co have yet to learn how to do it.
—-See, I can argue against the person rather than the argument just like you two.

Gary – you dig such a deep hole for yourself…perhaps *you* might go back to the same link and *read* the many rebuttals to your pet post on placebos…I encourage anyone here to, in fact.

Thanks for the link gary – excellent info in the many comments on the placebo effect.

To quote from just one of those:

“Elsewhere you admit that a double blind randomzied placebo-controlled trial is the gold standard…Its obvious that you keep a very narrow view of what the placebo effect is so you can deny its existence.”

Cheers

Homoeopathy works .. it has survived for 200 years and like a healing tree grows steadily larger and stronger.

Up until recently Orthodox medicine held an iron grip over its members. Every where these bodies lie convulsing poisoned by their own lies.
===================================
http://www.bolenreport.com/Geier/marylandmedboardexpose2.htm
California, to its credit, has become the first State to proactively address the horrifying fact that “organized medicine” is the number one killer of Americans – and do something about it.
===============================
©DEATH BY MEDICINE October 2003
Gary Null PhD, Carolyn Dean MD ND,
Martin Feldman MD, Debora Rasio MD,
Dorothy Smith PhD.

ABSTRACT
A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million. (1) Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics.

(2, 2a) The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. (3) The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. (4) The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251. (5)

The enumerating of unnecessary medical events is very important in our analysis. Any medical procedure that is invasive and not necessary must be considered as part of the larger iatrogenic picture. Unfortunately, cause and effect go unmonitored. The figures on unnecessary events represent people (“patients”) who are thrust into a dangerous healthcare system. They are helpless victims. Each one of these 16.4 million lives is being affected in a way that could have a fatal consequence. Simply entering a hospital could result in the following:

In 16.4 million people, 2.1% chance of a serious adverse drug reaction, (1) (186,000)
In 16.4 million people, 5-6% chance of acquiring a nosocomial infection, (9) (489,500)
In16.4 million people, 4-36% chance of having an iatrogenic injury in hospital (medical error and adverse drug reactions). (16) (1.78 million)
In 16.4 million people, 17% chance of a procedure error. (40) (1.3 million)

All the statistics above represent a one-year time span. Imagine the numbers over a ten-year period. Working with the most conservative figures from our statistics we project the following 10-year death rates.

TEN-YEAR STATISTICS FOR UNNECESSARY INTERVENTION
Unnecessary Events 10-year Number Iatrogenic Events
Hospitalization 89 million (4) 17 million
Procedures 75 million (3) 15 million
TOTAL 164 million

These projected figures show that a total of 164 million people, approximately 56% of the population of the United States, have been treated unnecessarily by the medical industry – in other words, about half a million people per day.

INTRODUCTION
Never before have the complete statistics on the multiple causes of iatrogenesis been combined in one paper. Medical science amasses tens of thousands of papers annually – each one a tiny fragment of the whole picture. To look at only one piece and try to understand the benefits and risks is to stand one inch away from an elephant and describe everything about it. You have to pull back to reveal the complete picture, such as we have done here. Each specialty, each division of medicine, keeps their own records and data on morbidity and mortality like pieces of a puzzle. But the numbers and statistics were always hiding in plain sight. We have now completed the painstaking work of reviewing thousands and thousands of studies. Finally putting the puzzle together we came up with some disturbing answers.

“To look at only one piece and try to understand the benefits and risks is to stand one inch away from an elephant and describe everything about it. You have to pull back to reveal the complete picture, such as we have done here.”

Yes, the opposite of the reductionist approach, but one that I think could be applied to the greatest thinkers of our time – those who looked at the bigger picture instead of tunneling deeper in just one place.

Homeopathy is a 200 year old scam based on magical thinking. It doesn’t work. Those who believe it does are fooling themselves.
Go ahead and pay good money for your magic water , but your illness will be not one jot helped by it. Not only does it not work but the mechanisms by which it’s proponents claim it operates are the purest nonsense.
But a fool is easily separated from his money, especially by the CAM scams.

gazza – what do you care? It’s not your money…others might say the very same thing about a lot of pharma medications – that they’re waste of money, but it’s up to the individual to decide.

gazza,gary what a fool you are,time to change the name you use,also please try to back the crap you spew with some fact not funded by pharmaceutical companies
Thanks Igor some great info there

http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php

On the other hand, it seemed to him high time to utter an energetic protest against the attempts that are made to proclaim the problems of research as actual facts, the opinions of scientists as established science, and thereby to set in a false light, before the eyes of the less informed masses, not merely the methods of science, but also its whole position in regard to the intellectual life of men and nations.

Let us hope that men of science in England also will not fail to examine this most serious question, whether the authority of Science will not be better secured, if it confines itself strictly to its own province, than if it undertakes to master the whole view of nature by the premature generalizing of theoretical combinations.
RUD.VIRCHOW. Berlin, February 11th, 1878
================================

I note that in the USA that the authorities have granted Pharmageddon freedom from prosecution.

Even Garry/Gazza would have no difficulty in figuring out why that was greased in congress. What a bunch of skunks these people are.

I think they can hear the hounds of justice baying and hope to avoid responsibility for what they have done.

gazza,gary perhaps you should spend some more time on some research, the link you have provided is from a proven quack,mind you if you spent a little more time researching you wouldn’t be here spewing the crap you have been,or would you
http://www.truthwillout.co.uk/2011/07/edzard-ernst-the-quack-professor-retires-defeated/

Hi Jas, pity that you have not yet learned how to use the shift key.
And research is not just looking at quack sites on the Internet Jas. Truthwillout.co.uk ? Seriously? What a joke

BTW homeopathy still doesn’t work.
Neither does acupuncture, reiki, reflexology or astrology.

garry or gazza or what ever other names you use, you still have not taken the message, there are many many people who are not into your Hup,two,three,four. hup hup. mentality.

The name of the game is ‘Health Freedom’ .. the right to choose and that is coming because the truth is coming out all over the planet.

This so called science is just a single system of thought in amongst many, and one that has bought the masters of war the Atom and Hydrogen bombs .. it has bought us Nuclear Power Stations.

It has trashed the Planet and it has trashed the sea .. it has trashed human beings in untold millions.

The Nations command vast armies with all kinds of horrible deaths in their arsenals and all this has not solved the social ills of nations .. the poor, the sick, the starving and to all of that, science is a body servant to evil with its God as Mammon.

Ah, now we are getting to the crux. Ivor is anti-science. He claims “it has trashed human beings in untold millions.”
He should note that because of science there are now 7 billion people on this planet. The best his pre-scientific technology could support ( in dreadful living conditions) was well under 2 billion.
The percentage of people starving under Ivor’s primitive ideal was much greater than today.
Ivor’s Health Freedom is just a plot to make people ignorant and sick.
Homeopathy doesn’t work. It has absolutely no credibility.

rule 11 for trolls:when beat make fun of the grammar
gazza,gary=COCK

You have no credibility, Gary. As far as “work” goes, you should try it sometime.

Gary .. it really would be wise to understand that the Planet Earth is a sentient being and like a true mother she has put up with all sorts of insults from her pups but there comes a time when she is going to whup backsides and looking at the evidence she has already started.

Anti Science eh! can I be put in the slammer for 5 years for holding the culprits up to the light of day? ROFL ..

Many of them lie through their teeth at the bidding of their masters and most of the lies are to the detriment of Humanity.

There are good Scientists who follow wherever truth will lead them but the bulk of them follow where ever the mortgage leads them.

Look up the word humility Gary and respect other peoples freedom of choice instead of Hup two three four. Hup Hup!

“He should note that because of science there are now 7 billion people on this planet. The best his pre-scientific technology could support ( in dreadful living conditions) was well under 2 billion.”

Gary, the simple fact is that the majority of the current 7 billion are living under ‘dreadful conditions’ – which is required to support the minority who lord it over them with military might.

It seems to me that you’re a very frightened individual, who really looks to a ‘mummy state’ to look after him. Otherwise you would not be so upset by those that choose to do or believe in things different to you or what the mummy/nanny state proposes.

Unfortunately, for you, there are more and more people every day refusing to do what the mummy-nanny state says, so I guess you’re going to become more and more agitated and upset. That’s your problem, though, not mine.

One final thing, since the planet cannot support 7 billion people with the same standard of living as that enjoyed by those in certain ‘luckier’ countries -the ones who depend upon resources from other countries to maintain their artifically inflated standard of living – to say that the 7 billion have science to thank is hardly supportive of science.

Have a lovely day Gary, and try to come out for some sunshine. We won’t bite.

Ivor, it is just new-age flim-flam to regard the planet earth as ‘sentient’. Anti-science BS.

As for peoples freedom of choice, what about my freedom of choice to live in a society where numb skulls don’t go round intentionally spreading preventable diseases by not being vaccinated.
Ivor, if you want to live where no one is vaccinated and you don’t have access to modern western medicine why don’t you go and live in some african backwater. Good luck with the malaria.

Jas, sorry about the grammar jab. For all I know you may have some disability that makes such things difficult for you. If so, I apologise for my rudeness.

Deborah, you need to read Buckminster Fuller.

“As for peoples freedom of choice, what about my freedom of choice to live in a society where numb skulls don’t go round intentionally spreading preventable diseases by not being vaccinated.”

Unfortunately for you, not everyone (including medical professionals) agree with your vaccination beliefs. So you’ll just have to either get used to it, or go and find somewhere where you can hide from us. Either way, it’s still your problem, not mine, as my beliefs appear to have no overlap with yours.

That is the end of my discussions with you – you’re on your own now, but I do hope you work things out.

Lucky for me that the vast majority of New Zealanders (doctors and the general public) are pro vaccination.
So it is the tiny minority of anti vaccers that are on your own.

PS, Homeopaths are not proper medical professionals.

http://www.naturalnews.com/034334_Institute_of_Medicine_vaccination_dangers.html

NaturalNews) For years natural health experts have been battling mainstream medical officials over the existence of vaccine dangers, but a new safety report by the Institute of Medicine settles the argument; they reveal that a relationship exists between vaccine use and adverse health effects. The comprehensive safety report released by the organization aimed to examine the side effects of vaccine use, and it ended up divulging information regarding vaccine side effects that most mainstream medical officials would have previously disregarded.

The statement by the IOM that a “relationship between certain vaccines and adverse health complications does exist” is monumental since it is coming from a mainstream medical organization (though it does not truly highlight all of the dangers involved with vaccinations).

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034334_Institute_of_Medicine_vaccination_dangers.html#ixzz1fjnISCJF

Despite what Natural News claim…

“For years natural health experts have been battling mainstream medical officials over the existence of vaccine dangers…”

…’mainstream medical officials’ have always acknowledged the possibility of adverse reactions from vaccines. Here’s a fact sheet from 1998…

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/puarticles/vaccine.htm

…and a more recent summary for consumers…

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/consumers/Safety-of-Medicines/Vaccine-safety.asp

As always, the argument isn’t that vaccines are 100% safe (they aren’t, and no-one has ever claimed they are), the argument is whether the benefits of vaccinations outweigh the risks.

60+ years of use on billions of people, which has seen an unprecedented rise in life-expectancy, an a equally dramatic drop in childhood mortality, and a virtual elimination of death and serious injury from the infectious diseases vaccinated against, would suggest that it is worth it.

gazza,gary
As for peoples freedom of choice, what about my freedom of choice to live in a society where numb skulls don’t go round intentionally spreading preventable diseases by not being vaccinated.
please back up this loony statement with some facts
I have no problem with you lining up for a jab,you think you are well informed(unfortunately)
The fact is people that do do there own research quickly find vaccines are not what they have been told,this is where you come in a paid troll to confuse the issue,you and others like you are the bottom feeders,parasites,maggots
I have no problem with people making there own informed decisions(something that frightens you)

Well spoken Jas .. thank you.

Blue Sky/ Gary/gazz or whatever else you call yourself. I read most carefully at the link that you provided .. what a load of self serving dishonesty .. Surely you do not want to be associated with that kind of filth .. Or do you ?

I am minded of that despicable creature ‘Madeline Allbright the then Zionist mouthpiece in the Zionist occupied USA .. she was being interviewed about the war crime of Iraq .. “The thousands of children that have died as a result of the invasion .. was it worth it? this despicable thing paused .. and then answered yes WE think it was worth it.

That is the same sort of mindset that is obvious on that Govt website which is a load of self serving tripe.

We may see the stance these monsters have taken well here is a different story ..
=================================

Treatment of vaccine victims
Vaccine Damage

[First they injure your child with a easily proven useless and dangerous vaccine then they add insult to injury by doing everything possible to deny any connection (See: Coincidence lie), then they will fight you tooth and nail to avoid paying out, while moving the goalposts (eg remove MMR legal funding, or fix things so they can say it never happened, eg DPT serious brain injury, and then say DPT is perfectly safe on their leaflets--'science has moved on' is their favourite euphemism for this ploy), any which way that suits them, while they lose your medical records. Even after they are forced to pay out they can still try and change the verdict and get their money back. And then they still, by law, can deny any connection, which is why the UK gov' has paid out for MMR deaths yet can still say MMR doesn't kill---to quote one of the masters of propaganda: "Nobody would disagree that deaths have been reported after MMR vaccines. But deaths after vaccination are very different from deaths caused by vaccination."----Dr David Salisbury.
And a rare doctor helping the victims with (vaccine induced) bowel disease, Dr. Andy Wakefield, was run out of the country, is only vilified in the media, and they are currently trying to break him in a kangaroo court.
Another indication of the way they treat victims is to deny Chelation therapy is any help and refuse to use it. To understand the attitude of the medical industry towards vaccine victims, see Allopathy Inc personality profile, now you know who created the UK's law of having to be over 80% injured to get compensation.
There is no government compensation system in Canada 1 and it is impossible to win damages in the courts. It is very doubtful that any third world country compensates their vaccine injured, which is why they like to run vaccine trials there: see Third world guinea pigs.]

See: Helen’s Story by Rosemary Fox Allopathy Inc personality profile

Bruesewitz v. Wyeth
The UK % vaccine disabled law

[2011] What Bruesewitz v. Wyeth Means for American Families By Louise Kuo Habakus and Mary Holland, JD This travesty of justice likely spells the end of the U.S. vaccine program as we’ve known it. Vaccines carry grave risks. Parents vaccinate their children believing that the government will compensate them if their child is “injured in the line of duty” as they uphold the public health. Last month’s Bruesewitz decision changes all that. If your child is injured, the Supreme Court states that You’re On Your Own (YOYO). This is like the doctrine of caveat emptor, buyer beware, only infinitely harsher. Parents have no real choice when it comes to state-mandated vaccination—if they refuse, no daycare, no schools, and sometimes even no medical care for their children. So it’s not just buyer beware. It’s “families have no civil rights when it comes to childhood vaccines.”

[2010 Jan] Read Silenced Witnesses Volume II: The Parents’ Story to see what parents and MMR (autism and bowel disease) damaged children have to endure.
a. Lose your medical records
b. rewrite the laws to avoid paying out and then pass the buck to the taxpayer
b. change a medical definition to avoid liability
and write barbaric laws to further avoid paying out
c. Hiding vaccine deaths
d. Fight you all the way in court where few get compensated:
e. Buy up the vaccine experts so they are even less likely to lose in court
f. Intimidate the experts
g. Use junk/fraudulent science to further avoid paying out
h. Accuse you of child abuse

See: MMR legal funding Medical records
See: Medical industry Lies
See: Some personal experiences

[2010 Jan] The British Government refuse to compensate health workers who become ill after conditional vaccines by Christina England

[2010 Jan] FURY AT VACCINE SCANDAL Up to 200 doctors, nurses, firefighters, prison officers, police officers, forensic scientists and binmen say they have developed serious physical and mental health problems after injections essential for their work over the past 10 years. All have given up their jobs and some are now 60 per cent disabled. Last night it emerged they are to miss out on payouts

Mother takes fight to Parliament “My son is severely autistic, he is doubly incontinent….I had to fight for his nappies, the most basic need for his disability, and I can’t get what I need, and I saw an MP put in expenses claims for nappies. It is appalling….I had to take out a legal action to get what I need for my son.” Alison Edwards

“There is no government (vaccine damage) compensation system in Canada, and impossible to win damages in the courts in this country. Only the province of Quebec (which often does its own thing) has a compensation plan that has turned away more than it has awarded. Only a handful of people have ever successfully gotten compensation in that province.
Canada seems determined to deny vaccine injuries as a fact of life. Canada is also a convenient test ground for vaccines, and our children serve as the test population. The five in one DTaP,Polio & Hib vaccine (known here as Pentacel) was developed and tested here for years prior to it filtering out into the larger vaccine marketplace.
Big Pharma loves Canada as the legal system has set an impossibly high bar, thus insuring that vaccine injury victims will not be awarded damages in the courts, which conveniently enables the government to maintain the myth that vaccine safety & injuries is a non-issue. As well, Health Canada (our drug oversight department) is cozy/cozy with the pharmaceutical industry. A recent book, written by a Health Canada whistle blower scientist titled “Corrupt to the Core” document this.
In Canada, hope of any court awards or government compensation seems an impossible dream at this point in time. Without court awards, government won’t budge, and without a reform of the rules governing personal injury cases, no court will ever rule in favour of a vaccine injury victim.”—Edda West VRAN (Dec 2008) [See: Lucia Morgan]

Vaccine victims (remember that these are the children who have given up their health or lives for the greater good according to the propaganda) and their families are treated with absolute contempt, and few, if any, third world countries compensate victims and even Canada didn’t until very recently and then only in one Province: [Media Canada, Nov 2002] Only Quebec pays out for vaccine injuries

The federal program of compensation for vaccine-injury victims. The program everybody has to go through before they sue a vaccine manufacturer, the program where it takes years going up against gov lawyers to get a few dollars through corridors of a Kafka-like hell. [OCTOBER 14, 2004] IDEAL COVER STORY FOR FLU VACCINE BEING FLOATED–Jon Rappoport

The Legal monopoly (and the government monopoly) supports the Medical monopoly:

“I became interested in monopolies through the federal reserve system. And I realized that because they now had the power to print money, since 1913, they were printing the money and taking over other areas. So that’s why you now have the medical monopoly, the American Medical Association, the medical trust. You have the legal monopoly, which controls the courts of the United States. And when you go into court, you are at their mercy because they can do whatever they wish…..And the education monopoly! And they found “that” was the most important one of all, because, by training the children to accept these other monopolies [and] never question authority”—Eustace Mullins. [Interview 2003] by Tom Valentine

so it was no surprise when the MMR litigants were left high and dry:

The removal of funds left the parents high and dry, without any proper legal advice about the consequences of continuing or abandoning their five-year-old claims against the three defendant drug companies…..It emerged that they were damned if they did continue and damned if they didn’t. If they battled on without legal aid, they risked losing their homes in costs to the drug companies should the case ultimately fail. But if they abandoned the struggle, they not only forfeited the chance to appeal the withdrawal of legal aid, they could also be liable for the hefty costs bill clocked up since their certificates were revoked in June. Worse, from their point of view, they may face insurmountable legal barriers to ever resurrecting their claims, should a new piece of scientific evidence come to light or public funding be restored. [Media Aug 2004] MMR: Keith and smiles? (Private Eye 6 Aug 2004)

They will deny any connection, and may:

a. Lose your medical records

Vaccine batch number deleted

“The main reason given was lack of medical evidence, in many case the medical records had been “lost” or “destroyed”. We had the experience of this ourselves, when we appealed we received the evidence from the Unit only to discover that the first four years of Paul’s records were missing from his file…………..How many were refused payment because of “lost” medical files is anyone’s guess.”—Wm. H Wain BEM

“The Department of Health has admitted that at least 400 records sent to its Committee on the Safety of Medicines in the Eighties no longer exist. As a result, dozens of families with sick children have lost out on payments from the Government of up to £100,000 under the Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme. They have been forced to abandon legal action for compensation because essential information was missing which may have proved their child did not have the condition before the vaccine.”–Media Jan 2003

“They disown you if you get an adverse reaction or your kid dies or something. I can’t even get our medical records out of the pediatrician….. I requested it by registered mail. The doctor is just refusing. I’m not unique. …This is pretty standard when it happens to parents. The doctors are brainwashed by the drug companies. The drug companies buy them lunch all day long. They are in denial. It’s almost like a huge psychological brainwashing. They think that they are preventing disease, that they are like God’s angels banishing disease and that they can’t do any wrong. Then they refuse to admit it. This is very standard.”–M Belkin

I set about trying to discover exactly what apparent data in relation to my children had been used in these papers.
Initially I tried ‘locally’ to obtain records in relation to my children; I then discovered that records in relation to my children ‘could not be found’.
These included GP, Health Visitor, Clinic, Midwifery and Birth, Vaccination, Hospital admission, Outpatient and Ambulance records.
With regard to Post Mortem records, all that was available was a brief 2 page Official Coroners Record for each child, which gave scant details and a cause of death as SIDS for both children. I knew that there had to be a Post Mortem File in relation to each child which obviously contained specific details of my children’s Post Mortems i.e. tests carried out, date and time of PM, samples taken etc.
It later was confirmed that my children’s Post Mortem Files ‘could also not be found’.
There were 40+ SIDS deaths in my city area (including my own children) these 40+ deaths occurred within a total of 2 years. For a population of approx 250.000 this appeared to be a high incidence. In fact this is documented by a GP as being ‘a significant blip’.
I discovered that all 40+ SIDS victims Post Mortem Files apparently also ‘could not be found’. It was clear that Post Mortem samples and organs were retained from many of these SIDS victims (including my own). Though why this happened, what was being tested for and the results of these tests apparently ‘were not available’ or ‘could not be found’.
Given the ‘research’ being carried out in my area by SIDS researchers I find it impossible to believe records in relation to 40+ children apparently have simply ‘disappeared’. [Aug 2007 Blog] Cot Deaths and Vaccines – Child Protection turned on its head by Lisa Blakemore-Brown

Medical record missing after mmr blunder

b. rewrite the laws to avoid paying out and then pass the buck to the taxpayer:

“Vaccine manufacturers and others are sheltered from product liability lawsuits by a special 1986 act of Congress. (See the US Code 42 USC 300aa for details.) This act set up a fund to compensate those who can prove serious injury from vaccines.”–Roger Schlafly

“It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.” –Thomas Sowell

“Next, consider that vaccine manufacturers themselves have almost no legal accountability for their products, which is unprecedented protection for any drug. Any other drug that has had to face as many lawsuits would have gone out of business already. Federal laws stipulate that vaccine manufacturers and administrators cannot be sued in court for vaccine liabilities, until after the government approves or denies compensation through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). Interestingly, our own Department of Justice lawyers intentionally delay and antagonize the processing of VICP claims, sometimes for as long as 10 years before an answer is given. This means those families cannot take vaccine manufacturers to court for as long as ten years or more after the initial injury or death. This tedious process makes it extremely difficult to litigate; the victims would have to retain the few lawyers in the country who are able and willing to invest this kind of time. As unpleasant as litigation is, it is one of the few checks and balances consumers have to trust products they use, let alone inject into their children.”—-Sally Tuker

and write barbaric laws to further avoid paying out [Psychopathy Allopathy Inc personality profile The UK % vaccine disabled law.]

[2011 Sept] MMR Victim Refused Compensation For Not Being Disabled Enough By Christina England Katie Stephen has been left permanently and profoundly deaf in her left ear as a result of receiving the now banned MMR vaccine Pluserix. Despite her injury however, Katie has been refused compensation for her disability because the VDPU deems her to be less than 60% disabled.

“Some were deemed to be under 80% disabled as required by the Act, this was always considered by the patients unjust, if the child was 79% it did not qualify but it if was 80% it did.”—Wm. H Wain BEM

“I have been in contact with my MP Andy Burnham in regard to the rules, such as the one which does not allow the parents of children under the age of two to claim. I hope he can raise this in Parliament.” [2011 April] New MMR case hope. Mum hails US autism link research claim

“I know parents who have been turned down because they say the child is 79.5 per cent disabled (not 80%).”–Ann Coote

JABS has received reports from the parents of these 30 children. Four of these children have been assessed by the Government’s Vaccine Damage Payment Unit and tribunals have awarded payments. Some of these children died from vaccine induced SSPE after being given a number of measles containing vaccines. Twelve of the children died under the age of two years and were therefore ineligible for assessment by the VDPU. There is an absurd clause which does not allow claims to be investigated until the child passes its second birthday. Just remind me Dr Flegg, when are most baby vaccines given?
The same families could not pursue investigation through the courts because parents cannot access legal aid if the child has died. The Legal Aid Board has its own strict criteria in that there is a cost/benefit rule. As the child has died and obviously does not have any dependents and does not need a long-term care package the value of the child’s life if a claim was successful would be rated at about £7,000, it would cost more than this to take the case to court therefore the family would not be allowed to pursue a claim. What price justice? –Jakie Fletcher [Letters BMJ Becoming Ben Oct 2008]

b. or change a medical definition to avoid liability:

“Encephalopathy was redefined so that the diagnosis requires as a sine qua non in excess of 24 hours of a diminished level of consciousness, a criterion which is far more restrictive than that of the leading epidemiological study of pertussis vaccine injury, the British National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES). Moreover, seizures have been removed from the Table, although that the pertussis vaccine can cause seizures is uncontested (and warned in the manufacturer’s package insert).”–Marcel Kingsbourne

or even decide to deny DPT vaccines cause serious brain damage by arranging to win a court hearing, even after paying out for 900 children in the UK alone over many years:

“The case commenced in October 1987 in front of Lord Justice Stuart-Smith at the High Court. I was alarmed to discover that it was the Judge who decided which case he wanted to hear and which witnesses he would allow to be heard and that there would be a moratorium on all other Legal Aid Certificates. Lord Justice Stuart-Smith …..found that the Plaintiff had failed to show on the balance of probabilities that the vaccine could have caused permanent brain damage in young children. ….. His Lordship’s decision did not surprise me and others because he had been deprived of hearing vital evidence from the parents of vaccine damaged children, their medical experts, independent medical experts from the Vaccine Damaged Tribunals and reports from the Yellow Card system. Before the case commenced I wrote to the Lord Chancellor and the Master of the Rolls saying that the case had been chosen to fail, they replied saying they could intervene. I also wrote to the Learned Clerk to the Lord Stuart-Smith about the witnesses to be called, he replied saying that this was up to the Counsel in the case.
There is little doubt the Loveday v Renton case left a lot to be desired in the interests of natural justice. When was the Loveday case selected when Miss Loveday had been refused Payment under the Act and had previously been to the court of appeal on two occasions which had refused her applications. There were hundreds of cases which could have been selected which had been awarded the Payment and where evidence could have been called by medical experts.”—Wm. H Wain BEM

c. While hiding vaccine deaths under Cot-Death/SIDS/Crib-Death, Munchausen’s or Shaken Baby Syndrome

“Scott Warren Walters, 28, was acquitted of the manslaughter of three-month-old Rikki-Lee after a Supreme Court Judge found that her death could have been caused by factors other than “shaking baby syndrome”…. Dr. Archivides Kalokerinos said a possible cause of Rikki-Lee’s death was “scurvy haemorrhages precipitated by pertussis [whooping cough) vaccine". Another doctor Mark Donohoe said Rikki-Lee may have been suffering from a bleeding disorder which combined with other factors could have caused the haemorrhaging."---Media

That is kill your baby with "medicine" and then persecute the victim, like Alan Yurko who is still in jail

or denying vaccine disease such as Gulf War Syndrome

d. And fight you all the way in court where few get compensated:

"Despite changes in the law, only one out of 171 cases succeeded in 2000 and the following year just two out of 176 were successful. Claims jumped to 406 in 2002 but only eight families received pay­ments, while of the 183 families....Kay Stait is still fighting for compensation for her son Ben, who developed epilepsy after a three-in-one jab in 1994 and has fits every day,' she said. 'He needs 24-hour care and has been in and out of hospital for years. Yet he was a perfect baby, just beautiful. I feel bitter and terribly cheated but we won't stop trying.'"--Media 2004

"My requests for information about Christopher's death have been blocked at every turn by the Government," ...."It was terrible" no one expects to find their child dead, but the opposition we have faced from the Department of Health (DHSSPS) has been unbelievable. ....the pathologist has since admitted the vaccine issue should not have been excluded from his initial report...."In his letter to the coroner, the pathologist failed to say Christopher received a vaccine before he died, and then another pathologist visited and told us the vaccine wasn't responsible," he said. [Media Dec 2006 Ireland] £2m payout over children disabled by vaccinations

The number of claims received and successful payments made under the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979, in each financial year since April 2000

“NVIC charges that the Departments of Health and Human Services (DHHS) and Justice have violated the “spirit and intent of the law” and turned what Congress promised parents would be a “non-adversarial, expeditious and informal process” into a “highly adversarial, lengthy, traumatic and unfair imitation of a lawsuit.” Pointing out that three out of four children are turned away for federal compensation for permanent immune system and brain damage following receipt of mandated vaccines.”–NVIC Press release sept 1999

In the second seven years of the scheme, 1985-86 to 1991-92 inclusive, 370 claims were submitted but only 15 awards were made, an initial-award rate of just 4%…The above therefore means that only 45 out of 1,592 applications (just 2.8%) were successful, surely an extraordinarily low rate. [July 2004] MMR and Acquired Autism (Autistic Enterocolitis) – A Briefing Note by David Thrower

[Media Feb 2004] Payout scandal of children left disabled by jabs
[MMR litigation] A life sentence with no appeal; It’s the final insult.
[Media 27 February, 2004] Parents refused aid to fight MMR

And they still deny liability even when they pay out:

The VDPS does not provide compensation per se, but a “contribution” towards the expenses of bringing up a disabled child. VDPS payments are not admissions of negligence, nor are they the result of strict liability [July 2004] MMR and Acquired Autism (Autistic Enterocolitis) – A Briefing Note by David Thrower

e. Buy up the vaccine experts so they are even less likely to lose in court:

“And then the industry started buying up the experts,” he contends, citing the example of James Cherry, a widely recognized pertussis expert who has served on both the ACIP and the AAP’s vaccine advisory committee.”—-Congressional Quarterly Researcher

CASE No. 82-1232, Cossette Krause, vs F.K. Abbousy, MD et al (State of Ohio), transcipt of videotape deposition of Dr Edward Mortimer September 6, 1984.. On page 11 reads the following:

“Several years ago, because of the increasing amount of litigations over DTP, members of the so-called Red Book Committee of the American Academy of Pediatrics agreed in a sense that we would sort of divide up the cases to try to help the manufacturers in these lawsuits, and therefore I and a number of my colleagues agreed to serve as expert witnesses.”

f. intimidate the experts

See 3 British vaccine critics: Donegan Fitness to practice hearing 2007 Smearing of Dr Wakefield Lisa Blakemore-Brown

Dr. Derek Smith. A neurologist and assistant professor at Harvard Medical School, Smith had been retained to testify for people with transverse myelitis, a potentially paralyzing neurological disorder. Smith said he was “highly confident” that the tetanus vaccine could trigger the ailment in certain vulnerable individuals. Officials with the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program strongly disagreed. Then Smith quit. According to court papers and interviews, Smith decided to bail out after complaints were lodged with his superiors by three other experts with a long history of testifying for the government in vaccine court…..Early in 2002, Smith was informed (that he) “was ruining his reputation by his testimony in the vaccine program,” …Wary of antagonizing people who could affect his career, Smith decided to drop out after testifying in one last case, …..Smith was told in so many words that he was jeopardizing his access to research funding. [Media, 29 Nov 2004] Witnesses for Petitioners Are Often Tough to Find

Another time, Justice Department lawyers persuaded an expert to switch sides, helping them defeat a string of claims. The cases involved children who suffered seizures and brain damage after diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus, or DPT, vaccinations. But the children also had a congenital condition – tuberous sclerosis, or TS – that could trigger seizures by itself. The issue was whether the shot or only TS was to blame.
Petitioners won a couple of these cases in the early 1990s, thanks to testimony by Dr. Manuel Gomez of the Mayo Clinic, described in court rulings as “the world’s expert in TS.”
Facing at least two dozen similar claims, the government mounted an aggressive counterattack. It retained three experts who then published three medical journal articles that supported the government’s stand, according to program records.
And without the knowledge of petitioners, government attorneys also contacted Gomez, briefed him on the work of their other experts and retained him as a defense expert.
Gomez was “the guru of tuberous sclerosis,” said Robert Moxley, a Wyoming lawyer for petitioners. His defection “was completely pivotal.” Like Chin-Caplan, Moxley described the government’s actions as witness tampering.
In September 1997, Special Master Laura Millman issued a lengthy ruling in the government’s favor – basically finding that TS, not the vaccine, is usually responsible when TS infants suffer seizures. Gomez, Millman noted, had believed otherwise, “but in light of his more thorough education in the literature (courtesy of respondent) he has changed his mind.”
Her ruling led to the defeat of most TS claims. [Media, 29 Nov 2004] Witnesses for Petitioners Are Often Tough to Find

g. Use junk/fraudulent science to further avoid paying out:

” The Taylor study is seriously flawed in many ways, as had been noted in a number of letters to the editor of The Lancet and in a number of additional letters on the subject which have been posted on the internet. It was subject to strong attack at a recent meeting of the British Statistical Society. I have been a full-time researcher my entire professional life, for almost 50 years, and I respectfully asked Dr. Taylor for a copy of the data so that I could reanalyze them. He refused this ordinary professional courtesy, and I have subsequently written to the editor of The Lancet requesting that an impartial committee be asked to reexamine Dr. Taylor’s statistical methods. If he refuses again, I urged The Lancet to retract his paper.”–Dr Rimland

Junk science quotes

h. Accuse you of child abuse or murdering your children, eg Sally Clark, Alan Yurko, a tactic of Sir Roy Meadow [See: Munchausen's Shaken Baby Syndrome.]

[2009 Sept] Social workers to place paralysed cancer jab girl on “at-risk” register

[Media 2000] Parents ‘risk losing children’ over MMR complaints

Read what a parent of a MMR injured child has to go through on a daily basis, with no help from government, for 20 years in this instance: We need help for our son, Eric who has autism from MMR–Raymond Gallup

“Since 2002 to the present, our son, Eric, has had aggressive tantrums including biting, kicking, pulling hair, scratching, choking and head-butting. Eric is over 6 feet tall and over 200 pounds and when he would have a tantrum at home, my wife, my 15 year old daughter and I would have to lock ourselves in our room. Since 2002 we had to call the Parsippany police many times and have Eric taken to St. Clare’s Hospital emergency room. Eric has been suspended several times from the special school for autism because of his behaviours. On December 10, 2002, Congressman Dan Burton read my letter to the people at the Government Reform hearing mentioning the fact that Eric was kicking down doors and that we were living in hell and under siege because of Eric’s behaviours.”–Ray Gallup

“damage caused by vaccinations means the complete destruction of a child, of an individual. Those kids can’t speak. They’re complete idiots, imbeciles. Often, they are spastically paralyzed, and frequently, they also suffer from muscular cramps… Sometimes whole families are destroyed.”—Dr Buchwald MD

Just think for a moment about the mind set of people who can treat vaccine victims with such contempt, and then ponder the fact that they are the very same people who claim MMR doesn’t cause autism and that vaccines are safe.

Jas, Ivor, jab me, whatever you call yourself…

I want to be associated with efforts to make our population as healthy and illness-free as possible, which is why I support vaccination programmes.

I’m not sure how you wrangle Zionism and the invasion of Iraq into the equation, except as a vaguely incoherent analogy.

Again, you list some cases of adverse reactions to vaccinations. We’ve been down that path. Yes, some people can become unwell because of vaccinations. Very rarely, someone might die. No-one is arguing that point. (I’d quite happily argue the autism connection, and have done so elsewhere, but … another time).

My point, again, which you seem to miss, is that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the negatives. Vaccination programmes in the western world (and increasingly in the developed world) save millions of lives every year. For you to be able to argue that vaccination programmes should be stopped because of the damage they do, you need to be able to demonstrate that the vaccines are killing more people than they’re saving.

Over on this thread…

http://uncensored.co.nz/2010/09/08/announcing-the-vitamin-c-can-cure-coalition/#comment-90512

…neo did some maths for the UK, which I’ll reprint here…

###

-Assume about 15 million kids in the UK (2004 figure)

and

-consider measles – the most transmissible disease known to humans, with 90% of non-immune pople who are exposed to measles catching it

If there was no vaccination program, there would (in time) be 13500000 kids catching measles in the UK

which would equate to about 6750 deaths, and 900000 kids getting complications of measles (encephalitis, pneumonia, otitis media)

THIS is the risk against which the safety of vaccines must be measured.

Do YOU think out of all the kids in the UK (the majority of whom are vaccinated), vaccines have killed 6750?

###

Well, do you?

blue sky,its just Jas
If you were concerned about the health of our kids here in NZ why not spend the time you waste here trying to find some real reasons for the staggering increase in autism,cancer,allergies which have gone up in correlation with the number of vaccines,.In my direct family there are 14 kids all of them have no allergies or health problems and none of them have been vaccinated,you say thats just lucky,maybe so but i will stick to my numbers rather than yours

So thank you for your concern but as you can see my familys knowledge about vaccines has served it well

“for the staggering increase in autism,cancer,allergies…”

staggering increases?

there is no correlation between autism rates and vaccination rates. vaccination rates have been consistently high in NZ since the late 60s. Autism rates started to go up in the late 90s, when, coincidentally enough, the methods for detecting and reporting autism changed.

cancer rates have not gone up in groups you would expect to find increases if there was a vaccination/cancer link (see above).

allergies? I’m not sure. Have allergy rates gone up?

Blu @ you.
to quote you ..

Autism rates started to go up in the late 90s, when, coincidentally enough, the methods for detecting and reporting autism changed.

That statement is a load of nonsense .. The MMR Vaccine was introduced in 1988 and one only has to see a child with Autism to know that there is something seriously wrong.

The MMR Vaccine has been proven to cause Autism and Dr Wakefield has been vindicated .. The BMJ has spent its reputation by upholding a lie.

Why should anyone believe your nonsense if people can no longer trust a prestigious medical journal to uphold the medical truth ?

THE MMR VACCINE IS PROVEN TO CAUSE AUTISM.

Madeline Allbright is a Zionist Jew and was part of the US Govt when they illegally invaded Iraq.

The monsters with the so called risk/benefit tripe seem to think that killing off a million here and a million there are of the same mindset as Allbright, anything goes so long as they are not on the cutting edge.

Have you no shame, no sense of decency ? Of course not Pharmegeddon,s 30 pieces of silver soon take care of such irrelevancies with your mindset.

It would not surprise me if it turned out that you were mentored by the defrocked Stephen Barrett (The Parrot) because you increasingly start to sound like him with your constant stream of lies and distortions.

You have lost any credibility by arguing that Black is White. Oh and please try to read the following post. It may be painful for you .. but as the athletes say “No pain,no gain”.

Vaccine-autism proven

[The scientific proof of vaccine autism has been around for some time but kept from the public by the industry controlled media who trumpet the smokescreen of junk science epidemiology studies that have all been shredded numerous times (helped by Study data kept secret, Autism and genetics, change in diagnosis). Plus the studies done by Dan Olmsted, Donald Meserlian & Generation Rescue, while the thousands of parent anecdotes are ignored for obvious reasons.
Vaccine autism could bring down the vaccine industry followed by Allopathy, which only rests on the vaccine hoax (see), while many reputations would be completely shredded, as Dr Fletcher points out: "There are very powerful people in positions of great authority in Britain and elsewhere who have staked their reputations and careers on the safety of MMR and they are willing to do almost anything to protect themselves." Also bear in mind the characters running Allopathy: The Medical Mafia (this interview gives an idea, also see: Allopathy Inc personality profile), and Why Vaccination Continues.]

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/vaccine_autism_proven.html

The article has many links to related orthodox scams

http://www.whale.to/v/king12.pdf the cut and paste below is taken from a 9 page pdf file at the link above.. very interesting !

“Vaccines and Autism – The Wrong Argument – rev. 1 (24 February 2011; 9 pages)” King, PhD, Paul G. The keys to maintaining any unsafe commercial activity are misdirection, disinformation, big lies, and pervasive propaganda. To be effective, the commercial interests use persons whom the public trusts. These spokespersons then promote the activity. They lie about its risks. They portray an activity that is less than safe as not only safe but also desirable. In the place of proof of safety, these propagandists invariably tout the “lack of evidence of harm”. In addition, the promoters of an unsafe activity do all they can to bury studies that question the activity’s safety under an avalanche of “recognized” studies that are peddled as showing “no evidence of harm”. Those who benefit from the commercial activity also do all they can to discredit those persons who dare to publish studies that question the safety of the activity. Further, they use their wealth to buy other “experts” to refute any link between the activity and the harm that it inflicts on the “general public”.

Heres a good read

http://www.rense.com/general54/Cancer-causing_vaccinesR.htm

yes Jas very informative but also heartbreaking .. It is difficult to believe that the monsters responsible are in anyway human. These are the people who trumpet academic and scientific freedom .. the story at the link that you posted is good reason why these types need to be placed under close restraint i.e. Rubber walled cells and strait jackets and no windows.

Orthomolecular therapy consists in the prevention and treatment of disease by varying the concentrations in the human body of substances that are normally present.

— Linus Pauling, 1968
===============================
The website is extremely interesting the members consist in the main of Phd and MD,s who follow the teachings of Prof Pauling they have pushed the frontiers of his teaching and having tried the modality I have to say thumbs up.
=================================

This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecular.org/subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml are included.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, December 7, 2011
Evidence-Based Medicine:
Neither Good Evidence nor Good Medicine
by Steve Hickey, PhD and Hilary Roberts, PhD

(OMNS, Dec 7, 2011) Evidence-based medicine (EBM) is the practice of treating individual patients based on the outcomes of huge medical trials. It is, currently the self-proclaimed gold standard for medical decision-making, and yet it is increasingly unpopular with clinicians. Their reservations reflect an intuitive understanding that something is wrong with its methodology. They are right to think this, for EBM breaks the laws of so many disciplines that it should not even be considered scientific. Indeed, from the viewpoint of a rational patient, the whole edifice is crumbling.

The assumption that EBM is good science is unsound from the start. Decision science and cybernetics (the science of communication and control) highlight the disturbing consequences. EBM fosters marginally effective treatments, based on population averages rather than individual need. Its mega-trials are incapable of finding the causes of disease, even for the most diligent medical researchers, yet they swallow up research funds. Worse, EBM cannot avoid exposing patients to health risks. It is time for medical practitioners to discard EBM’s tarnished gold standard, reclaim their clinical autonomy, and provide individualized treatments to patients.

The key element in a truly scientific medicine would be a rational patient. This means that those who set a course of treatment would base their decision-making on the expected risks and benefits of treatment to the individual concerned. If you are sick, you want a treatment that will work for you, personally. Given the relevant information, a rational patient will choose the treatment the will be most beneficial. Of course, the patient is not in isolation but works with a competent physician, who is there to help the patient. The rational decision making unit then becomes the doctor-patient collaboration.

The idea of a rational doctor-patient collaboration is powerful. Its main consideration is the benefit of the individual patient. However, EBM statistics are not good at helping individual patients-rather, they relate to groups and populations.
The Practice of Medicine

Nobody likes statistics. OK, that might be putting it a bit strongly but, with obvious exceptions (statisticians and mathematical types), many people do not feel comfortable with statistical data. So, if you feel inclined to skip this article in favor of something more agreeable-please wait a minute. For although we are going to talk about statistics, our ultimate aim is to make medicine simpler to understand and more helpful to each individual patient.

The current approach to medicine is “evidence-based.” This sounds obvious but, in practice, it means relying on a few large-scale studies and statistical techniques to choose the treatment for each patient. Practitioners of EBM incorrectly call this process using the “best evidence.” In order to restore the authority for decision-making to individual doctors and patients, we need to challenge this orthodoxy, which is no easy task. Remember Linus Pauling: despite being a scientific genius, he was condemned just for suggesting that vitamin C could be a valuable therapeutic agent.

Historically, physicians, surgeons and scientists with the courage to go against prevailing ideas have produced medical breakthroughs. Examples include William Harvey’s theory of blood circulation (1628), which paved the way for modern techniques such as cardiopulmonary bypass machines; James Lind’s discovery that limes prevent scurvy (1747); John Snow’s work on transmission of cholera (1849); and Alexander Fleming’s discovery of penicillin (1928). Not one of these innovators used EBM. Rather, they followed the scientific method, using small, repeatable experiments to test their ideas. Sadly, practitioners of modern EBM have abandoned the traditional experimental method, in favor of large group statistics.
What Use are Population Statistics?

Over the last twenty years, medical researchers have conducted ever larger trials. It is common to find experiments with thousands of subjects, spread over multiple research centers. The investigators presumably believe their trials are effective in furthering medical research. Unfortunately, despite the cost and effort that go into them, they do not help patients. According to fundamental principles from decision science and cybernetics, large-scale clinical trials can hardly fail to be wasteful, to delay medical progress, and to be inapplicable to individual patients.

Much medical research relies on early twentieth century statistical methods, developed before the advent of computers. In such studies, statistics are used to determine the probability that two groups of patients differ from each other. If a treatment group has taken a drug and a control group has not, researchers typically ask whether any benefit was caused by the drug or occurred by chance. The way they answer this question is to calculate the “statistical significance.” This process results in a p-value: the lower the p-value, the less likely the result was due to chance. Thus, a p-value of 0.05 means a chance result might occur about one time in 20. Sometimes a value of less than one-in-one-hundred (p < 0.01), or even less than one-in-a-thousand (p < 0.001) is reported. These two p-values are referred to as "highly significant" or "very highly significant" respectively.

The rest of the press release may be accessed on the website.

Everyones Guide to Nature Cure
Harry Benjamin N.D. Published 1936

The World Fifty Years Hence?
Harry Benjamin N.D.
So Medical Science continues to look for the cure of disease along the lines it persists in believing to be the right ones and, despite all that can be shown to the contrary, it will accept nothing which comes from sources outside its own closed circle. The spectacle thus opened up of a world still dominated by orthodox medical rule in, say, fifty years time, is, to say the least, far from comforting. Imagine what a world it will be!

Every child will have its tonsils and appendix removed at birth, no doubt, to prevent these unnecessary organs becoming the centres of possible future infection! Each and every unfortunate infant will have doubtless not less than thirty or forty different vaccines and sera injected into it, to prevent it contracting any of the “usual” complaints of infancy or early childhood!

Everyone who has the slightest suspicion of visual deficiency (from age two and upwards) will be immediately forced to wear glasses for the remainder of his or her unfortunate existence much to the benefit of the optician and oculist of the day, who will no doubt wax fat and endow hospitals and clinics for the immediate fitting of all infants as soon as born with suitable spectacles to prevent future eye trouble!

New and ever more complicated diseases will be springing up to baffle the already overworked minds of the medical practitioners of the day and no wonder! The “common” ailments, such as colds, catarrh, indigestion, constipation, etc., will be taken as a matter of course, everyone will have them! Cancer, Rheumatism, Bright’s disease, Diabetes, heart disease, etc., will have been creeping up year by year to at length have reached colossal figures!

The yearly consumption of worthless medicinal drugs and patent medicines will have likewise reached figures of due proportion! Surgical operations will have attained such a pitch of perfection and such a vogue that it will be hard to meet anyone who has not left some part of his anatomy behind on some hospital operating table or other only to discover after it was too late that his general health is, after all, worse, not better, as he had been led to believe it would be by his medical adviser!

The general style of living and eating of today, not having been censured in any way, will have grown worse and steadily worse, so that people with good teeth or healthy bodies will have grown so scarce as to be almost impossible to find! . . . And so on, and so on, to an infinity of pathological horrors.

What a world it will be! And how are we going to escape from it, or give our children the opportunity to escape from it? There is only one way. Each and every intelligent individual must accept and put into practice in his own life, and in the lives of those dependent upon him, the laws and principles of common sense healing and healthy living set forth under the heading of “Nature Cure” in the present book. THERE IS NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE! If the world as a whole, either through ignorance or indolence refuses to rescue itself from the disease increasing despotism of orthodox medication, then each and every individual possessed of enough initial understanding, courage, and determination, and assured of the proper guidance, must do so for himself. It is expressly for this one purpose to enable each individual so inclined to rescue himself from the fate that besets all the members of the human family who pay homage to medical suzerainty and authority that this present volume is intended.

Will it accomplish its purpose? That is for every reader to decide in his or her own individual case!

Ivor, fortunately your ‘arguments’ come across as the rantings of a mentally unbalanced person so most people will not be taking your views seriously.
But you have probably already noticed this.

Blue/gazza/gary or whatever you call yourself .. in the first place the articles were by someone else.

Dr Benjamin had it right eh ? And this in 1936. Then of course Orthomolecular therapy is a monument to Prof Linus Pauling.
================================
Here is another one to heat up your brain and of course it is the truth. Your faith in science is pitiful ..

We do not know what matter really is. We do not know what a Proton is made of.

We do not know what an Electron is made of, And the words only serve to cloak our ignorance.

Professor Louis C. Kervran
Biological Transmutations.
===============================

I can keep on posting quotes by some very eminent scientists who are world renowned in their particular fields but retain a sense of humility and a clear understanding of just how ignorant we are in the face of nature.

With regard to my remarks about the fact that the Earth is a living being who has given birth to everything that creeps and crawls, swim and fly and walks upon her beautiful skin.

Try this one from the scientist James Lovelock ..

Most of us sense that the Earth is more than a sphere of rock with a thin layer of air, ocean and life covering the surface. We feel that we belong here as if this planet were indeed our home. Long ago the Greeks, thinking this way, gave to the Earth the name Gaia or, for short, Ge. In those days, science and theology were one and science, although less precise, had soul. As time passed this warm relationship faded and was replaced by the frigidity of the schoolmen. The life sciences, no longer concerned with life, fell to classifying dead things and even to vivisection. Ge was stolen from theology to become no more the root from which the disciplines of geography and geology were named. Now at last there are signs of a change. Science becomes holistic again and rediscovers soul, and theology, moved by ecumenical forces, begins to realise that Gaia is not to be subdivided for academic convenience and that Ge is much more than just a prefix.
The new understanding has come from going forth and looking back to see the Earth from space. The vision of that splendid white flecked blue sphere stirred us all, no matter that by now it is almost a visual cliche. It even opens the mind’s eye, just as a voyage away from home enlarges the perspective of our love for those who remain there.
The first impact of those voyages was the sense of wonder given to the astronauts and to us as we shared their experience vicariously through television, but at the same time the Earth was viewed from outside by the more objective gaze of scientific instruments. These devices were quite impervious to human emotion yet they also sent back the information that let us see the Earth as a strange and beautiful anomaly. They showed our planet is made of the same elements and in much the same proportions as are Mars and Venus, but they also revealed our sibling planets to be bare and barren and as different from the Earth as a robin from a rock.
=========================
Science as poetry Gary .. but I do not expect you to appreciate it, you have no heart or empathy,no sense of wonder at it all.

Ivor – great posts, particularly the Lovelock reference.

Very much appreciated, I assure you

Thank you Bilbo, mainly they have been things that inspire me or infuriate me I am constantly amazed at the areas that people explore and develop still further, some have set me off on long journeys in the mind and tickled the soul.For example ..

The following site is amazing. Just see the index on the left hand side of the page.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

How do we get rid of these scurvy knaves? Can we hope that the hole that Pharmageddon is digging becomes so deep that they cant climb out, or even that it caves in on them.
============================

http://www.alternet.org/story/153332/seven_diseases_big_pharma_hopes_you_get_in_2012?akid=7978.279488.cMNYod&rd=1&t=6

AlterNet / By Martha Rosenberg
Seven Diseases Big Pharma Hopes You Get in 2012
Supply-driven marketing not only turns the nation into pill-popping hypochondriacs, it distracts from Pharma’s drought of real drugs for real medical problems.
December 6, 2011 |

It used to be joked that a consultant is someone who borrows your watch to tell you what time it is. These days, the opportunist is Big Pharma, which raises your insurance premiums and taxes while providing you “low-priced” drugs that you paid for.

How did Pharma get a good third of the United States taking antidepressants, statins, and Purple Pills, albeit at low prices? By selling the diseases of depression, high cholesterol, and gastroesophageal reflux disease, or GERD. Supply-driven marketing, also known as “Have Drug — Need Disease and Patients,” not only turns the nation into pill-popping hypochondriacs, it distracts from Pharma’s drought of real drugs for real medical problems.

Of course, not all diseases are Wall Street pleasers. To be a true blockbuster disease, a condition must (1) really exist but have huge diagnostic “wiggle room” and no clear-cut test, (2) be potentially serious with “silent symptoms” said to “only get worse” if untreated, (3) be “underrecognized,” “underreported” with “barriers” to treatment, (4) explain hitherto vague health problems a patient has had, (5) have a catchy name — ED, ADHD, RLS, Low T or IBS — and instant medical identity, and (6) need an expensive new drug that has no generic equivalent.

Here are some potential blockbuster diseases Pharma hopes you get in 2012.

Adult ADHD
Everyday problems labeled as “depression” sailed Pharma through the last two decades. You weren’t sad, mad, scared, confused, remorseful, grieving, or even exploited. You were depressed, and there was a pill for that. But depression peaked just like the Atkins Diet and the Macarena. Luckily, there is adult ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder), which has doubled in women 45 to 65 and tripled in men and women 20 to 44, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Like depression, adult ADHD is a catch-all category. “Is It ADHD or Menopause?” asks an article in Additude, a magazine devoted exclusively to ADHD. “ADD and Alzheimer’s: Are These Diseases Related?” asks another article in the same magazine.

“I’m Depressed. Could it be ADHD?” says an ad in Psychiatric News, showing a pretty but pouting young woman. In the same publication, another ad titled “Broken Promises” says, “Adults with ADHD were nearly 2x more likely to have been divorced,” while exhorting doctors to “screen for ADHD.”

Adults with ADHD are often “less responsible, reliable, resourceful, goal-oriented, and self-confident, and they find it difficult to define, set, and pursue meaningful internal goals,” says an article cowritten by Harvard child psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Biederman, who is credited with putting “pediatric bipolar disorder” on the map. They “show tendencies to being self-absorbed, intolerant, critical, unhelpful, and opportunistic,” and “tend to be inconsiderate of other people’s rights or feelings,” says the article, describing most people’s brothers-in-law.

Adults with ADHD will have trouble keeping a job and get worse without treatment, says WebMD, tapping into the second requirement of a blockbuster disease — symptoms worsen without pills. “Adults with ADHD may have difficulty following directions, remembering information, concentrating, organizing tasks, or completing work within time limits,” according to the website, whose original partner was Eli Lilly.

How did Pharma get five million kids and now, maybe, their parents on ADHD meds? Ads on 26- by 20-foot screens in Times Square that ask “Can’t focus? Can’t sit still? Could you or your child have ADHD?” four times an hour couldn’t hurt. (Bet no one had trouble focusing on that!)

Ivor, I do have a sense of wonder. For example, I wonder how you managed to survive to adulthood given your stated beliefs in magic and the supernatural.
Homeopathy does not work.
Vaccination does.
Acupuncture does not work.
http://www.painjournalonline.com/article/S0304-3959(11)00077-7/abstract

http://www.painjournalonline.com/article/S0304-3959(10)00689-5/abstract

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-revisited/#more-11765

Post-Gardasil Syndrome in Quebec Followed Vaccination Sans Consent

Post gardasilRead Full Article here……http://sanevax.org/victims-2/

After much research and discussion, my daughter and I had both signed the required form to refuse the Gardasil vaccine currently being administered in Quebec. In order to assure there would be no problem, I also phoned the school the morning the first dose of Gardasil was to be offered and spoke to the school nurse to inform her that my daughter would not be receiving this vaccine. The nurse assured me there would be no problem.

On 28 September 2011, my daughter presented the signed vaccine waiver and informed the school nurse that she would not receive the HPV vaccine. The nurse then set aside 15 minutes to inform Camille about the benefits of the vaccine.

After the discussion, Camille repeated her decision to refuse the Gardasil injection. The nurse then handed her additional informational documents and told Camille that if she changed her opinion, she could always inform the other nurse.

Subsequently, Camille met with a second nurse, this one outraged that my daughter refused the vaccine. She had set aside 10 minutes of her time to try to convince Camille again. The only side effect she mentioned was headache. This nurse pointed out that Camille would be the only one in the school to refuse Gardasil. She told her the consequence of refusing meant she could get cancer and die, only because she was being stubborn. She continued on until Camille finally granted her consent.

At that point, the nurse told her not to show her health record to her mother in order to avoid any discussion on this at home.

My daughter was pressured until she agreed to be vaccinated. Her ‘consent’ was neither freely given, nor appropriately informed. Camille’s consent was obtained through intimidation. A 14-year old girl does not have the experience to deal with authority figures in the same manner as an adult.

In my opinion, the way Camille was treated was an abuse of power and a breach of my trust in school health authorities.

Without my consent, or knowledge, Camille received her first Gardasil injection at 3:45 pm on that day. By 4:00 pm she was on the bus to come home. She already had a stomach ache and a headache. She decided to try and rest during the 45 minute drive home. She lost consciousness. Students noticed and tried to wake her up, but when they did she acted confused. They informed the bus driver, who promptly stopped the bus and called an ambulance.

She was admitted to St-Jérômes Hospital barely 2 hours after her injection. She has no memory of how she got to the hospital other than she recalls waking up in the ambulance. The hospital staff said there was no link between her condition and the vaccine. They recommended consulting an allergist.

The future brought fever, rash, fainting, fatigue, weakness, headaches, stomach pains and more consultations. She is now being treated for a urinary infection, abscesses in her mouth and oral candidose.

No link?

I lodged a formal complaint to the Order of Nurses of Québec. Teenage girls must be informed and warned of all possible side effects – not be left in the dark.

Today, nearly two months after the first shot of Gardasil, my daughter still has headaches that will not go away. Day after day she has to deal with them. She has no more appetite and has lost weight. This girl, who has been to an ophthalmologist every year since she was two years old and exhibited perfect vision, has now been told she will have to wear glasses because of her deteriorating vision.

For 11 years her vision was perfect, no longer – no link?

The doctor from the Canadian Health Agency told us there was no link between her symptoms and Gardasil. Furthermore, she said that Camille was sick and had all of those symptoms prior to vaccination. How can she say that?

I swear to God, my daughter’s health was in perfect condition BEFORE she got this shot

Read Full Article here……http://sanevax.org/victims-2/

Blue/Garry/gazza try this one. I am so looking forward for your response ROFLMAO.

‘The Scientific Basis of Astrology’ by Dr Percy Seymour.
Published by W. Foulsham. Slough, U.K.

When this book was published, Dr. Seymour was the Principal Lecturer in Astronomy at the University of Plymouth, UK. In an interview, Dr. Seymour made the following statement;

“I am a scientist. As such I cannot propose or understand a model of reality which does not take account of scientific data. I am not an astrologer, in fact this theory developed out of an examination of the arguments that astrology cannot work!

As a theoretical astrophysicist, with an interest in the relationship between fundamental physics and the large-scale structure of the universe, I am searching, as are many others, for a model to explain the current anomalies and paradoxes in these areas that are beyond the domain of astrophysics i.e. biology, chemistry, and to my amazement, astrology.”

The following are selected quotes from the book;

“It is now accepted by almost all scientists that the sunspot cycle effects the magnetic field of Earth, and the agency responsible for this effect, the solar wind, has been detected”.

It is also beyond doubt that the moon causes tides in the upper atmosphere which give rise to electric currents, and these generate the lunar daily magnetic variation.

There is also plenty of evidence that both the steady state as well as the fluctuating behaviour of the geomagnetic field can be used by organisms, including man, for purposes of finding direction and keeping internal body time. This much is all well documented, and widely accepted.

There is evidence, largely ignored, that positions and movements of planets as seen from the sun, play a major role in the solar cycle. Furthermore, there is some evidence, highly controversial but difficult to dismiss, that some positions of the planets, as seen from Earth at time of birth and are linked to personality characteristics of individuals.

“This evidence exists. What my theory does, is to prepare an interpretation, based on this evidence, which can be scientifically tested. Very briefly the steps are:”

1. Planets effect the solar cycle in specific ways.
2. The solar cycle effects the geomagnetic field.
3. The geomagnetic field affects life on Earth in certain observed ways.
4. Specifically, many species, including man, can be influenced by particular states of the geomagnetic field.
5. The particular influences appear to correlate with the planetary positions.
6. I propose that the behaviour of the foetus, at the time of birth, is linked to the cycles within the geomagnetic field, which in turn are influenced by the solar cycle and positions of the planets. Resonance is the phenomenon by which the foetus is phase locked to specific cycles.

To put this in more specific terms, my theory proposes that the planets Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, control the direction of the convective motions within the Sun, which generate the solar magnetic field.

They do so because they play the major role in moving the sun about the common centre of mass of the solar system. As the solar cycle builds up to a maximum, so certain configurations of all the planets, at different stages, play a part in the disrupting the magnetic field of the sun, by means of the tidal tug (due to gravitation), of the planets on the hot gases in the Sun.

Thus, the planets play a role in the modulation of Earth’s magnetic field by the solar wind. I am also proposing that the tidal tug of the planets on the hot gases trapped within our magnetosphere will, because of resonance, lock some of the vibrations of the Earth’s field in step with the planetary movements.

The resulting fluctuations of Earth’s field, are picked up by the nervous system of the foetus, which acts like an antenna, and these synchronise the internal biological clocks of the foetus, which control the moment of birth.

The tuning of the foetal magnetic antenna is carried on by the genes which it inherits, and these, to some extent will determine its basic genetically inherited personality characteristics.

Thus, the positions of the planets at birth are not altering what we have inherited genetically, but are labelling our basic inherited personality characteristics.

Dr Seymour has not said anything, that science does not already know. What his words do is to underline the intellectual dishonesty which is so much in evidence in all of the present day scientific disciplines. He is a courageous and intellectually honest man who has challenged a shibboleth of science. A major problem for most of those disciplines is the rigid hierarchical structure that will bully or ruin those that would dare to step outside of its tightly controlled fiefdom. Any whiff of Vitalism is suppressed in case Academia has to rewrite its carefully structured mythology.

‘All professions are a conspiracy against the laity’
George Bernard Shaw
1856 – 1950

Homoeopathy the Orthodoxy of the Future.

Garry, I feel sure that Dr Seymour on Astrology has shut your grizzle about it.

So let me go back to Homeopathy. Earlier in this thread I proposed a magnetic or electronic explanation as to how Homoeopathy works and that all it is .. my opinion and all you did to refute it was to go straight into insults but there was no rebuttal so your opinion was not valid.

Usually when these sceptoid trolls attempt to invalidate Homeopathy they resort to a scientific theory known as Avogadros constant and which they claim that not a single molecule of a medicinal substance remains in a potency of 12C or 24X. That may be the case .. however we are moving into the realms of electronic or magnetic signatures, an echo or memory if you wish.

The Mole and Avogadro Constant,
Molar measurements, are a most useful tool for the Herbalist. An understanding of the mole concept will also clarify aspects of homeopathic pharmacy.

In 1811, the Italian physicist Count Amedeo Avogadro, published a hypothesis that went largely unnoticed by the scientific community for nearly 50 years.

In brief, the paper suggested that equal volumes of any gas, under the same pressure and temperature, would contain the same number of particles.

Subsequently, Avogadro’s hypothesis although it pertained to Gas Laws was developed as a core concept of physics and chemistry. The basic idea is that individual units are counted by weighing a given quantity, in the same way that a bank teller will weigh coins to determine their value.

One mole of any substance is its atomic mass number expressed in grams. This amount will contain as many ‘entities’ as there are atoms in 0.012 kg (12 grams) of Carbon 12, which is the standard mole. It will be seen from the Periodic Table, that the elements do not have simple whole numbers, due to the presence of naturally occurring isotopes. It is sufficiently accurate to use the simple whole numbers rounded, e.g. Carbon12, Oxygen16, Nitrogen14 and so on.

12 g of Carbon 12, which is the standard mole, contains;

6.02252 x 1023 atoms.

This number is called ‘Avogadro’s constant’, or Avogadro’s number. Therefore 1 mole of oxygen weighs 16g and contains ;

6.02252 x 1023 atoms.

Avogadro’s number is astronomical, and when written in full it is quite incomprehensible.

602252 000 000 000 000 000 000.

Avogadro’s number is often cited by orthodoxy to refute the homeopathic claim that the serial dilution of a remedy will increase its potency.

According to Avogadro’s theory, when a serial dilution of 12c (centesimal) or 24x (decimal) has been attained, not a single molecule of the solute will remain in solution. Nonetheless, the enigma of homeopathy remains because undoubtedly high serial dilutions produce a very pronounced effect on a healthy person.

Molar Solutions.
A solution may be defined as a solvent, i.e. a liquid in which a substance called the ‘Solute’ is dissolved. A solution is homogeneous.

As stated, 1 mole of any substance is its atomic number expressed in grams, e.g. 1 mole of Hydrogen weighs 1 gram. And contains 6.02252 x 1023 atoms.

1 mol of Oxygen weighs 16 grams. In the case of a molecular compound, the atomic mass numbers are added together; for example water; its molecular formula is H2O and we wish to know the weight of 1 mol H2O, proceed as follows;

Hydrogen atoms = 2 x 1 = 2g = 2 mol ‘H’
Oxygen atoms = 1 x 16 = 16g = 1 mol ‘O’
Total = 18g = 1 mol H2O
Therefore, 1 mol H2O weighs 18g and contains 6.02252 x 1023 molecules.

1 mol of any compound is its formula weight in grams. The concentration of a solute in solution may be expressed in moles per litre (mol/L), or as grams per litre (g/L). For example, a 1 mol per litre (1mol/L) Saline solution, would contain 58g of Sodium chloride (NaCl) per litre, e.g. Na = Sodium = 23g/mol and Cl = Chlorine = 35g/mol. Total = 58g/mol which is expressed as 1 mole/L or 58g/L NaCl.

This explanation is as taught in schools around the world. However when one looks at it one finds the usual jiggery pokery of the magic numbers conjured up by the high priests to appear on the altars of science.

What these people claim about the absence of medicinal material in the higher potencies MAY or MAY NOT be true. They do not know or anything else about these entities or what they are made of, they play numerology and think the general public are fools and they continue to denigrate anyone who practices or uses the remedies.Not to mention the untold millions who have been cured.

These sceptoid zealots are very dishonest people devoid of truth. If they were real scientists then they would have done what Dr Seymour has done with Astrology and followed the truth irrespective of where it led him.

Next up Garry Acupuncture to help sooth your fevered receding brow.

The fetal magnetic antenna!
Please let us have some evidence, scientific not annecdotal, for the existence of such an organ.

Similarly, let us have some scientific evidence for the memory effect on water. You needn’t bother looking really as there is none.

As for the story about poor Camille…it was just a story, an anecdote. And as you are well aware, or should be, annecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. And can you explain why a girl with perfect vision was taken to an opthalmologist every year since she was two? Is this normal behavior for Canadian parents?

Looking forward to Igor’s “evidence” for accupuncture. I’m sure it will be the usual anecdotes and a load of tiny, badly designed trials by sCAM funded fake scientists.

Re astrology : http://chem.tufts.edu/tufts-ssa/ESkeptic21.htm

Nuffield said, you lose again. And I had to cut and and paste so much less than you Igor.

I am getting tired of this intellectual battle with someone so clearly unarmed. Bye. Have a nice week. Get vaccinated .

An intellectual battle? Rofl .. Hey before you go you have left your ball(s) in the playground .. have a merry Christmas Garry.

I almost forgot Grizzle .. in an earlier post there was a URL for Prof Emoto,s website dealing with water.

The methodology he uses is laid out the water is subjected to crystallization with the amazing results shown.

Not only do you not examine evidence by following URL,s given but you failed to see what Dr Seymour had written re fetal antennae something about genes not jeans you fool

He also stated that the nervous system acts as the antennae.

You do not read very well do you Garry ?

Igor, you will find that the magnetic fields generated by the wiring in the walls of the birthing room will have an effect on the baby magnitudes greater than that caused by the position of Mars and Uranus, completely swamping any celestial effects.
Your arguments are very silly indeed.
Homeopathy does not work. You can paste links to all the crackpot sites you like … It won”t change the fact that homeopathy can not and does not work.

Still waiting for your feeble response to the acupuncture links I kindly provided.

Have a nice week and keep well away from infectious people … With your unprimed immune system you could get quite I’ll.

Ivor – thanks for the links – will chec them out this week.

And gardasil…another worthless (about as useful as a flu vaccine, which means no utility at all)and dangerous drug…

Garry,
turn your radio on, swing the dial and there are a multitude of stations. All on different frequencies.

The frequencies that the nervous system are tuned to are very different to those of our electrical system.

The effect of the moon on the tides. science seems to rely upon gravitational tug and pull as an explanation. If that were true then its effect upon our 75% water bodies would be catastrophic. Newton has been dead for a while now Garry.

In case you have not noticed the Electric Universe is the latest paradigm.

Oh dear, old chap, how tiresome we have to change all of those formulae that we relied upon to guide us through the rabbit hole.

You are so ignorant, not to mention tiresome with this insistence on school room science.

Empty your head of the self self self and take a good look around you. Your totally self centred dismissal of the young lady that was damaged by Gardasil is at the very least Callous, you are blind and cruel Garry.
==============================

Look how the floor of heaven Is thick inlaid with patines of bright gold: There’s not the smallest orb which thou behold’st But in his motion like an angel sings, Still quiring to the youngeyes Cherubins; Such harmony is in immortal souls.
SHAKESPEARE: THE MERCHANT OF VENICE (ACT. V, SCENE l)
================================
All the progress obtained by our cerebral effort consists in the ascertaining of material facts by ridiculously imperfect instruments, which make up in a certain degree however for the inefficiency of our organs.

Every twenty years some unhappy enquirer, who generally dies in the attempt, discovers that the atmosphere contains a gas hitherto unknown, that an imponderable, inexplicable, unqualifiable force can be obtained by rubbing a piece of wax on cloth; that among the innumerable unknown stars, there is one that has not yet been noticed in the immediate vicinity of another which has … Well, what about it?

Our diseases are due to microbes? Very well. But where do those microbes come from? And what about their diseases? And the suns, whence do they come?

We know nothing, we understand nothing, we can do nothing, we guess nothing. We are shut up, imprisoned in ourselves …
GUY DE MAUPASSANT: NOTEBOOK, APRIL 7, l888

Bilbo, I wish you Good Hunting!
Ivor

Yes Igor, you are about as ignorant of how the world works as Maupassant was in 1888.

Since you won’t present anything about acupuncture (for me to ridicule) perhaps you might like to give us your views on evolution. That will be interesting I’m sure. After all, Darwin has been dead a long time now.

BTW, I would sooner fly in an aircraft designed using Newtonian physics than one built using New Age Electric Universe physics. Or would you prefer to fly in a plane designed by ancient chinese ‘wisdom’ ?

Garry,
Our diseases are due to microbes? Very well. But where do those microbes come from? And what about their diseases? And the suns, whence do they come? (Maupassant)

Maupassant asked some questions. These are questions which have not been answered by science.
==============================
Are you aware that science has examined Acupuncture in depth. There are circa 9 different theories as to why it works the question they ask, is why does it work ?.

You see Qi is currently not able to be measured and a major problem for science is that if it cannot be measured it cannot exist. I shall need to digress a little here.

Circa 1890 William James published Principles of Psychology. This book of course became a must read of flower power culture.

From my memory he had said something to the effect .. that behind our everyday consciousness and separated by the flimsiest veils is other forms of consciousness .. and of course this is so .. the evidence lies in the realms of religion for example Buddhism and of course those forms that have been labelled as abnormal and we incarcerate such people.

Then the famous allegory from Plato,s Republic in which he refers to shadows on a cave wall meaning of course our usual form of consciousness.

In the same way our physical bodies have a plasma body which has been verified by Kirlian photography my opinion is that Qi is a nervous system for a plasma body.
==============================

Evolution ?

probably the last book I had read on evolution was Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and entitled ‘The Phenomenon of Man’.

I am in my mid 70,s and retired and the subject involving bones and skulls no longer appeals. So perhaps an excerpt from a letter to my youngest daughter will suffice to explain a little of what I intuitively feel.

We stand suspended between heaven and earth, and at our station in the scheme of things, 70 odd years as an average, and to our feet stand scales of time that nearly defeat the imagination .. flickering seconds and the un-sensed horizons of eternity. From molecules to planets, everything has its season within the scheme of things.

The Sun and its attendant Planets are mirrored within our form and function .. The Hermetic Dictum, ‘ As Above So Below ’, Our organ systems faithfully reproduced within the Stars, each system dependent on the others for its function. It is here at this point, that our need to trade is given birth.

A molecule required for the smooth functioning of the nervous system is fashioned by the digestive system .. exchanges of instruments of unbelievable accuracy and function .. molecules flickering across great inner spaces. Molecules that power the functions of the human body, these minute messengers .. on and off at speeds upwards of 30,000 times a second.
==============================
Out of all of the explanations of evolution I have to favor ‘Intelligent Design’ such a theory of course rests upon a maker. Some call it God.

And its for sure that not all scientists are Atheists and not all scientists believe that they sit on Gods right hand, they retain a sense of humility.

Gary have you taken you’re medication today,the withdrawal can make people seem crazy
Perhaps some fluoride to calm you’re thoughts, maybe a flu shot will bring you closer to the truth

Igor writes ” Are you aware that science has examined Acupuncture in depth. There are circa 9 different theories as to why it works the question they ask, is why does it work ?.”

This is completely wrong of course. There may be several theories as to how it could work, but they are all just speculation because, in reality acupuncture does not work.
For example; You can speculate and develop theories as to how a pig might fly but pigs don’t fly so such ‘theories’ are meaningless.

As for Intelligent Design, what designer in his right mind would put the air intake inside the food intake? All those who have choked to death on food would be most interested in meeting this designer and having a few words with him.

While it is true that not all scientists are atheists, most are. Here are a few…

http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve

Kirlian photography is nonsense.
http://www.skepdic.com/auras.html

The stars were formed from the remnants of the Big Bang. All life is made of star dust, including microbes.

Have you caught up with plate tectonics yet?

Jas, It is summer out here in the real world. Don’t need a flu jab for a few months yet.

Garry .. I have to concur with Jas because there is obviously something seriously amiss with you .. you go on and answer nothing of any value to anyone .. nothing but the insults .. no attempt to debate a matter .. I honestly feel that those skepdicks gave you a thorough thrashing and treppaning .. wow that takes heavy meds eh boy! because you are locked into linear thinking .. Can you not see or understand anything beyond the range of your nose.

I have done my level best to treat you as human being but I feel like I address a spot of fly shit on a light bulb .. you are totally bereft. I think that you constantly regress into childishness .. kicking and screaming with your eyes squeezed shut as a response to the abuse that you so obviously received as a child.

So please tootle back to the skepdicks little boy .. there you may receive a little sympathy for your childish behaviour.

Ivor there is something wrong with gary,there is no debate with him,he is a know it all know nothing idiot,i do feel a little sorry for him as lines up for the summer flu shot but what can you do,you’ve tried.at least there is some more good info to read on this site now thanks Ivor
More than likely garry works for pharmacies or has shears in the company or my favorite he is a retard

Wow! I have read my previous comment again and can find only one slight insult regarding plate tectonics.
Your viscious response it out of all proportion.

No comment on the ‘Steves’ link?
No comment on the ‘Kirlian’ link?

I can don’t believe that you have nothing constructive to say about the information presented in those links.

You seem to be antagonistic towards linear thinking; the same linear thinking that provided you with the very computer you are using to spread your anti-science nonsense.

Tell me, how come there is no difference in the effect of sham and ‘real’ acupuncture?

Tell me why an intelligent designer would put the light sensitive cells in our retinas round the wrong way so the nerves have to cross in front of them and exit through a ‘blind’ spot? How come He got it right with the octopus and wrong with us?

Gary

Thank you Jas,

you are right .. One thing for sure the battle has been won,because despite his denials alternative therapies now have over 50% of the market and it continues to grow and not just in NZ but also around the globe.

And its the Mothers both young and old who saw what was happening to their children and united in common cause and have started to bite back.

So long as we continue to plug the message then what these monsters have in mind for us becomes a mirage.

Namaste
Ivor

Gary .. your question;

Tell me why an intelligent designer would put the light sensitive cells in our retinas round the wrong way so the nerves have to cross in front of them and exit through a ‘blind’ spot? How come He got it right with the octopus and wrong with us?
==================================

In the first place we live in a different environment to the Octopus. But I do not think it all works like that. From Apes to Homo Sapiens, and for well over a century the search for the missing link has gone on and has not been found .. Linear thinking again.

There are molecules found in the human frame which are also found in plants and utilized for the same purpose by us i.e.sight and movement, and the major difference between blood and chlorophyll is a mineral at the centre of the molecule .. magnesium for plants and iron for humans.

Every so often a great catastrophe strikes the earth and some species become extinct whilst new species appear. These new species retain and utilize the most successful of the molecular structures.

To use a crude analogy .. the annual parade of the latest offerings from the motor trade e.g. the wheel has not yet been replaced for obvious reasons (It is succesful)

I feel that it is a mistake to think that we as a specie have attained the ultimate plateau .. we are evolving but not in a linear fashion.

So perhaps the maker discards the older models but retains the best features in the new.

One of the greatest jokes of all time was the scientific Phlogiston Theory all of the eminent scientists of the day such as Priestly and Scheele contributed to the growth of Phlogiston.

The man that finally unseated the idiots was Lavoisier with his oxygen theory, but not without a fight I may add because these kind of mindsets do not like to be exposed.

But the discredited scientists had the last laugh because Lavoisier was beheaded by the people during the French Revolution .. and these funny people with their weird sense of superiority and entitlement need to remember that, and especially when the people understand what has been done to them.

Posted by Gary | December 5, 2011, 12:25 pm
“I am not paid to comment here … I do it for my own amusement and to waste your time.”
The first one I’ve seen admit it. But thanks gary, a whole lot of information has been posted in this thread by other people because of your dribble

Vaccine Ingredients – Yummy

http://www.rense.com/general59/vvac.htm

Interesting that you praise Lavoisier for fighting against the scientific establishment in support of his Oxygen discovery and in the same breath you decry him as “funny people with their weird sense of superiority and entitlement “. BTW he was beheaded because he was a tax man, not because he was a ‘superior’ scientist who discovered Oxygen.

Missing link? Every time we find a missing link it provides two more gaps for the creationists to bleat about. Evolution is as much an accepted fact as is the heliocentric solar system and the roundish earth. You, me, and the chimps all evolved from a common ancestor.

Science is by nature conservative. When someone comes along with an idea that threatens the current consensus they better have some very good evidence. Lavoisier did and his discovery was soon accepted.
There is no such evidence for homeopathy or acupuncture and this is why the scientific consensus is against them. They don’t work and the claimed mechanisms by which they are supposed to work are nonsense and unsupported by science. This science is the same science that makes your computer work and keeps planes in the sky.

was it Confucious who said .. man who dribble fills up his belly button ?

Oh Garry Jab me .. my time has not been wasted, on the contrary .. my long rebuttals of your nonsense had a different purpose .. spreading the word .. so haul up your drawbridges .. we are coming .. the 99% wants a true accounting of what has been done to us.

Scientific consensus ? I do not give a fig about scientific consensus and of course Lavosier got beheaded for being a taxman but he was also part of those funny people with a sense of entitlement. Just imagine all of those distinguished scientists who had put their money on the Phlogiston Myth.

It must have been really tough going for Lavoisier because only fellow academics know what a nest of vipers they are part of .. big heads, nastiness, sarcasm,tantrums that dork who threw a wobbly because he thought he should have been the recipient of the Nobel Prize. The mind boggles.

They are totally and utterly mad .. remember the first A Bomb. Well apparently they were very uncertain as to whether there would be a devastating chain reaction that could destroy the world .. I recall reading a biography by a European Scientist who hosted a group of scientists on the day of the A Bomb test. They sat in a garden in deckchairs because they did not know either.

Now the dick heads went ahead and did it any way .. fortunately the reaction was confined to the locality .. the point to be made here is .. they did not know either and yet they went ahead and did it .. I do not recall them asking any ones permission .. utter madmen with a brain defect.

You may think you came from an ape but its only your opinion and apes opinions are usually ignored by scientific consensus.

I do not think the Wright brothers were scientists either. But then science has a long history of fraud and plagiarism, probably the worst fraud of all was the Pasteur Myth which just like Phlogiston is still followed by medical science.

Please give your take on pleomorphism

oh god, Gary is back again.
Same old lines. Same old GaRees.
At least you are not pretending to be a “mother of 10″ anymore. Shouldn’t you be cleaning up liquefaction or plastering cracks in your walls or something?

I’m reading Richard Feynman’s autobiography at the moment and his team accurately calculated the energy release of the first A bomb before they exploded it. They knew in advance just how the bomb would work and how powerful it would be.

The you and the apes evolved from a common ancestor is not ‘my opinion’. It is called evolution and is fully supported by all the evidence. Unlike creationism which is ‘supported’ only by myths and legends.

pleomorphism?
http://www.thetwentyfirstfloor.com/?p=2677

Now I really must go and get my chakra realigned and feed my feng shui before my aura weakens due to the current moon phase.

You guys are such fun.

Have a nice week … I am not eating any more time here for a while. I have had my chuckles and we are now just repeating ourselves.

BTW, ‘Mother of 10′ is a NZ cultural reference that you yanks wouldn’t understand.

Whiffle piffle from an expert in whiffle piffle eh mummy 10

Fenymans autobiography .. could you tell me the name of the author ?

Openheimer was the top honcho for the murderers. Fenyman was not on the decision making. The yield of the bomb was known in the same way that the calorific yield of a lump of coal is known.

I repeat again that they did not know if an uncontrollable chain reaction would be ignited. You seem to be very confused mother of ten because the yield has nothing to do with uncontrollable chain reactions .. there are no magic numbers for that.

It would also appear that you know absolutely nothing about pleomorphism .. A clue for you .. google Dr Lynn Margulis.

Evolution is no more than an opinion and even then the opinion is badly divided. It is one thing to uncover something that is considered a fact but totally ignores the inbuilt bias of the interpretation of that so called fact

Intelligent design is also called a theory of evolution .. the argument put forward makes more sense than mainstream science which if we believe them its all by chance, all been built by chance, it just happened.

Scientism is a plague on mankind it seeks to control how and what people think. Well be sure of this Gary .. when the people come for an accounting of what has been done to them, they throw lightweights like you to the mob first in an attempt to appease the anger that they themselves have generated.

It is historical fact that the high are made low.

Merry Christmas to you and yours mother of 10.

A large part of the reason why Creationist arguments against evolution can sound so persuasive is because they don’t address evolution, but rather argue against a set of misunderstandings that people are right to consider ludicrous. The Creationists wrongly believe that their understanding of evolution is what the theory of evolution really says, and declare evolution banished. In fact, they haven’t even addressed the topic of evolution. (The situation isn’t helped by poor science education generally. Even most beginning college biology students don’t understand the theory of evolution.)

The five propositions below seem to be the most common misconceptions based on a Creationist straw-man version of evolution. If you hear anyone making any of them, chances are excellent that they don’t know enough about the real theory of evolution to make informed opinions about it.

Evolution has never been observed.
Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
There are no transitional fossils.
The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
Evolution is only a theory; it hasn’t been proved.

Explanations of why these statements are wrong are given below. They are brief and therefore somewhat simplified; consult the references at the end for more thorough explanations.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

Read and learn, you ignorant creationists.

Gary you have failed to address any of the points that I raised and you have not even answered the simple Question about Fenymans Autobiography .. and if we are to believe your assertions then Fenyman is a liar whereas most of us know that you are the liar.

There are two ideas in intelligent design that appeal to me.
1. Intelligent Design.
2. The out of place artefacts or OPA,s but let us take a look at your most recent twaddle ..
===============================
1. Evolution has never been observed.

As far as I understand it the creationist,s do not deny evolution I believe the differences lie in the time scales involved and of course the scientific explanations which have no more claim to reality than Donald Duck.

2. Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The first and second laws of the thermodynamics are subject to much controversy *. With tongue in cheek we may say, ” There is some pressure on the matter”. For our purpose the situation can be summed up, by Michael Flanders and Donald Swann’s rendition of a little ditty;

You cant pass heat from a cooler to a hotter. Try it if you like, you’d far better notter, cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler, cos the hotter bodies heat will pass to the cooler.

Oh you cant pass heat from a cooler to a hotter. Try it if you like, you’d only look a fooler. Cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler, that is a physical law. Heat is work and work’s a curse and all the heat in the universe is gonna cool down because it cant increase, there’ll be no more work and perfect peace;

Really ? Yeah, that’s entropy man!

‘all because of the second law of thermodynamics’

At the Drop of Another hat’ E.M.I. Records 1964

* The second law of thermodynamics contradicts the findings of cosmology and evolution. This of course presents a problem for Science which has not been properly addressed, and never more so in the field of medicine and the periodic table.

“As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain,they do not refer to reality”.
Albert Einstein.

3. There are no transitional fossils.
Gary this is a matter that you skated around in an earlier post.
Transitional Fossils = The Missing Link in the scientific monkey theory.
=================================
The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
Evolution is only a theory; it hasn’t been proved.

4, Is the assertion of science and not intelligent design.

The proponents of intelligent design (Creationists) poke fun at the scientific explanation one of the more amusing analogies is as follows …

First we had a big bang, and what ever it was, fell in a great shower of rubbish and landed in a scrap yard on earth .. shortly after a monkey happened by and climbed the fence into the scrap yard. The monkey then assembled a grand piano and started to play a symphony.

Silly as the analogy is, it sums up the position of science.

The nub of the matter is .. Science claims it all happened by chance.

The Creationists say it all happened by intelligent design. That is an idea that appeals to me. Of course there are just as many silly things asserted in Intelligent Design as there are in science.

How one interprets facts depends on ones point of view and if we are to believe Garry then there is only one explanation, which of course is nonsense.

I tried to draw Garry on Pleomorphism .. he will not touch it because it completely destroys his pro vaccination rantings.

Ivor, well put, as always.

Thanks for the points.

Igor,
You failed to go to the link I provided or you failed to read the rest of the page. All your silly responses are delt with there.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

Have another go, and see if you can learn something.

BTW, an autobiography is written by the person who is the subject of the biography. I thought you were joking when you asked who was the author. In this case it is, obviously, Richard Feynman.

“The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.”

There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn’t understand evolution. Chamnce certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mumtations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such bmeneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the ennvironment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don’t interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

Gary .. your comments that you attributed to Fenyman were obviously untrue. If the Autobiography was written by Fenyman instead of a ghost writer then that leaves a few liars lying around .. you were being drawn but did not bite.

Natural Selection by chance ROFLMAO how on earth can this so called Natural Selection work, if there is no intelligence behind it ? or is that chance too ?

Tell me also Garry .. what is all this furore about Intelligent Design ? What is behind it all ? Please no gobbdeygook about young minds and the benefit of mankind nonsense.

I guess I have to take a guess as to what it is all about. Its about money garry boyo. I wonder how much that Hadron collider cost ? boys with their toys burrowing deeper into the rabbit hole. Where did all the money come from garry boyo .. Goverments and Corporations and where did they get their money boyo ?

Who feeds the starving millions ? Who puts a roof over the heads of the millions of homeless .. ohh dont bother about that tiresome stuff old chap .. look we have found the God particle .. Bah!

So what about this pleomorphism ?

Ivor,

You have admitted that you don’t know how Natural Selection works. May I suggest that you educate your self on the subject. There are many resources available that explain this rather simple idea. You could start with the simple example given here …. http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/?t=496
but please follow this up with A look around this site too…
http://www.talkorigins.org/

Read Feynman’s autobiography, it is very easy reading. Get a view of the A bomb development from someone who was actively involved at the time.

Intelligent Design is nothing by Creationism pretending to be science.
My watch was intelligently designed. You were not. You were designed by Natural Selection.

Garry,

Fenyman was just a junior cog in the works,and if it was he or a ghost writer and not you who told lies then show me. Oppenheimer was the boss. Like I have stated they knew the yield of the gadget just like they know the yield of a lump of coal. What they did not know was the extent of the chain reaction. Its not very often that you are right but you are wrong again.

Natural selection is no more than an opinion. just like many other so called facts. These strange people argue like cat and dog in amongst each other and yet when it comes to a school curriculum the whole mess is presented as a full and proven picture.

Intelligent design as a concept has more going for it then the so called natural selection.

Academic science sucks a lot of money from the people whilst the Academics sit on well padded backsides playing glass bead games.

Science has to stay up high in the govts head in order to maintain their lifestyles and that is why they spit scream and shout if someone wants to offer a different view to students. Its just like the Cancer scam that nets them a lot of money and just like the vaccination scam which also nets them a lot of money.

I have also visited some of those links that you keep posting .. and its the same old tired propaganda, give us all a break garry. One knows the stakes are high when one see,s the amount of money involved in maintaining all of these propaganda sites.

One presumes that there are more than two choices when we get to the natural selection stage of evolution .. tell me garry, how does this mysterious natural selection work? .. you have said it is simple so you must know.

With a hand of cards someone has to make the selection, the winning hand is selected by someone.

The human body is an absolute miracle, science does not know how it works and what little they do know has been arrived at by vicious, cruel human and animal experimentation.

The construction of body which you insist is a chance affair, is the product of a higher being which many including me call God and this superior being is responsible for the phantasmagoria of the inscrutable cosmos and those wonderful images revealed by the Hubbard Telescope, the whole cosmos is alive a living breathing miracle and you talk of puny science as though it were God

Karma is a proven historical fact and what you give, then so shall you receive i.e. what goes around comes around. The hubris that has heaped untold misery on the world will reap what it has sown.

As for the technical wonderland which science makes a dubious claim, has it made you happy and bubbling with the joy of being alive? .. have you ever been in love Gary? .. what is it like to hold in your arms a new born child and to share the miracle of life producing life with your mate.

Just consider how many life forms our common mother has given birth to, have you ever saw the desert burst into life after a kiss of rain ? Gary these are things that one cultivates within the heart and thus one learns to tame a turbulent mind and to give honor to ones mother and thanks the Lord for the blessings that shower from the great blue.

A cynical twist of the lip cannot banish what lies deep in the heart just waiting for that kiss of rain.

It is Christmas .. every time you let god love others through you.

Yes it is Christmas .. every time you smile at your brother and offer him your hand.

Those are the words of a Saint .. Mother Theresa of Calcutta

Oh Lord, I know I need to learn
but why did you send garry ? Whats that you say ? If I can love garry then I can love anyone ?.

Oh Lord can I leave until after Christmas?

Top of the season to every one, I hope its a box of fluffy ducks and flowers in the heart.

gary i thought you weren’t going to waste any more time here,yet here you are,did you work out trolls don’t get paid unless you keep it up
I for one don’t even read the shit you write any more,i consider that a waste of my time

Sorry jas, but you are like a scab that I can’t stop picking at.
I repeat, I don’t get paid to annoy you. I do it for fun.

Ivor, the scientists knew full well the extent of the chain reactions. It was only scientifically illiterates like yourself that were worried. I bet you were worried about the black holes made by the Hadron collider sucking in the whole planet too.

Have you learned how natural selection works yet Ivor? Not much point in your discussing evolution until you know what it is you are against. Go away and don’t come back until you understand how natural selection works … I have already provided links to help you.

BTW, homeopathy still doesnt work.

gary you say
Sorry jas, but you are like a scab that I can’t stop picking at.
I repeat, I don’t get paid to annoy you. I do it for fun.

What type of person are you,you have some serious personality problems pal
Straight up gary GET A LIFE

There might be a vaccine for your scabs

Garry,

you get paid for the nastiness that you unload here. Nobody makes the statements or spreads the propaganda that you do, for fun.

3 explanations .. either its money or you are a sociopath. Or maybe your group leader only hires sociopaths .. Your mind is so narrow, a man could shave a hog with it but then the hog would probably die of some awful unknown disease.

Jas, he would be a disgrace to his mother, if he had one.

Ivor, the scientists knew full well the extent of the chain reactions. It was only scientifically illiterates like yourself that were worried. I bet you were worried about the black holes made by the Hadron collider sucking in the whole planet too.

Have you learned how natural selection works yet Ivor? Not much point in your discussing evolution until you know what it is you are against. Go away and don’t come back until you understand how natural selection works … I have already provided links to help you.

BTW, homeopathy still doesnt work.

Garry you are such a fool .. there are no magic numbers for the chain reaction ..science at the time was deeply divided .. and lots of European Scientists sat waiting for catastrophe, fortunately for us all.

Those European scientists that were responsible for the gadget Oppenheimer et al, it was self contained. They all breathed a sigh of relief and were able to send their skid marked underwear to the laundry. Its all been noted and will come out when we have some honest historians.

And as the little that they did know was insufficient, even after the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they still found it fit to murder a few thousand Allied soldiers and sailors to fill in their data sheets.

And that in itself is a snapshot of the scientific mind .. vicious reptiles who need locking up.

And you are so stupid to ignore the evidence presented for all those things that science cannot measure. Anecdotal evidence is not allowed eh ? Yet it is the persons experience of events .. what a bunch of clowns you all are.

But the nemesis of the glass bead scientific clowns is very close garry .. Its no money .. its all falling apart .. and scientists will become just useless eaters in the peoples struggle for survival and the overthrow of the parasites that feed off them.

And garry the people will feed and shelter some scientist,s but mark my words this time around they will be very tightly controlled.

Garry boyo you are licking the wrong boots. So repent you speck of flyshit or face the consequences.

I feel relieved, Mother Theresa,s chiding applied to people not lizards and I am able to keep the pox at keyboards length.

Whilst I remember .. your talk of the Collider .. the concern was that the boys toys cost a lot of money. Money that most reasonable people would feel better spent on the people instead of amusing a bunch of lizards .. God Particle ?
Bahh!

The End Times are a cummin eh Ivor? Just like it says in the Bible?
You religious morons are the fools. You cant even understand something as simple as natural selection. How stupid you must be. No wonder you have to resort to magic water homeopathy. The real world is just too difficult for you to understand. Easier to just say “God did it” and stop thinking for yourself.

ROFMAO

Witty

Oh for sure boyo .. you are not going to administer some kind of coup de gra .. stupid .. you are finished in terms of your credibility.

So report back to your master that those peasants may be troublesome .. ROLMAOS

There is no way you are important enough for any company to pay me to wind you up. I do it purely for my own entertainment.
Once I thought I could educate the misguided people like yourself that post here. I soon learned that people who base their ideas on faith rather than evidence are usually unable to change their ideas in the light of obvious evidence. Hence your refusal to try and grasp the simple concept of natural selection.
So now I just wind you up to see what ridiculous nonsense you will come out with next. And you haven’t disappointed me yet … Creationism, homeopathy, acupuncture, anti vacc, new world order, a sky fairy called god. Hilarious! Amazing that one person can get so many things completely wrong in his head and is still able to tie his shoe laces.

I have been told that atheists are regarded as untrustworthy as rapists by christians in the USA.
You would not be comfortable here in New Zealand Ivor – about half the population here has no religion.

Being atheists we are too busy raping, pillaging and eating babies to find time to go to church.

Have a nice Sunday.

PS. Interesting that the days of the week are named after Norse deities. I would have expected the Christians to have taken over the week day names. Like they took over existing mid winter celebrations for their Jesus birthday party.
Happy Newton’s birthday to you for next Sunday.

Garry, I am a Kiwi. and just looking at your latest outpouring of sludge I think you have been nipping at your mums cooking sherry, you naughty boy you. You have once again made assumptions about me and in it all, do I detect a note of desperation? ROFLMAO

I will post again in reply to your penultimate post.

Garry,

I feel honored that you attribute so many mind sets to me, but you have padded your list with your own interpretation of what I have said. It becomes obvious that you have insufficient experience in any field to make an adequate rebuttal.

You have not answered any questions put, and evaded many facts, in a thread that has long deviated from the Vaccination scam.

Natural selection is just one concept amongst many and I am not really impressed with it as a working hypothesis mainly because it is another one of those explanations that is at odds with many other scientific disciplines.Science is a hodge podge of ideas it does not all hang together as an overall theory of science it presents a patchwork hodge podge and so very different from the shiny stainless steel edifice presented in the schools.

Did you know that trees, shrubs and herbs have 16 different pathways that can be utilized, each pathway of course will give different results. One presumes that what is selected by the plant is mediated by such obvious parameters as temperature, pressure, light and the chemical composition of the soil. Change them and the nature of the plant changes .. But there are other factors of which we are unaware

Everything is connected to everything else with perfection .. I can see that a higher intelligence has built this miracle so I am not really impressed with natural selection as an idea as given, and as for the crack about sky fairies .. what a hubris soaked ignoramus you are.

Oh when I am safe in my sylvan home, I tread upon the pride of Greece and Rome, and when I am stretched beneath the pines, Where evening star so holy shines, I laugh at the lore and pride of man, At the sophist schools and learned clan, For what are they in all their high conceit, When man in the bush with God may meet”.
R. W. Emerson.

Have a nice Sunday gary

Gary .. I know you are fishing, so let me tell you that my bloodline is Celt not Norse. However those Norwegian Vikings have a most interesting creation mythology, if I recall correctly from some of my early readings in the subject, a statement was made that life began in Ice.

Many scientific experiments have been made for example the classic bombarding of a man made primordial soup ..the ingredients of the soup was a guesstimate .. then the soup was blasted by miniature man made lightning bolts.

The soup formed some molecules of life but further attempts to get these molecules to join and to build a higher molecule failed.

Someone hit upon the idea of freezing the soup and then thawing it .. lo and behold some of these molecules realigned themselves and formed the sought for higher molecules whilst in the frozen state. The experiment petered out because they were lacking what the Vitalists call the divine spark.

It seems to me that those Nordic Peoples knew something that science did not .. but it is one thing to know the mechanics and the position of these molecules in space but it is a totally different thing to endow them with life.

Science even explains photosynthesis and gives a chemical formulae but it doesnt work .. I wonder why ?

One does not need to be a Christian to believe in a Supreme Being, all beliefs do. But often the shock and awe comes to many in the form of an inner experience that is so intense that the life changes instantly. Flowers burst in the heart like flowers in the desert at the kiss of rain, life goes on as before but its not the same because one has been given a most precious gift which carries one through the blows and travails of this life.

These experiences happen to people whose hearts and minds are wide open and so often that trust is abused by unthinking people. But like a tree the individual grows beyond the pettiness and the nastiness and trades a hand shake for a blow.

Unfortunately jerks like you make me want to break branches, so I have still many things to learn.

Have a nice Christmas or a Happy Newton.

Sorry to assume you were a yank Ivor. However it makes me sad the learn that our science education in NZ has failed you to such an extent.

I would love you to provide an example of natural selection being at odds with another scientific discipline.
I will, of course attempt to follow up by showing that there is no conflict.

“May you always be in sight of a cabbage tree.” A a friendly Kiwi saying that I just invented.

Happy Newton ? Naaah its not quite the same is it ? Lol

BTW garry .. did you know that Newton was an Alchemist ? get a hold of a copy of his notes .. this paragon of Alchemy was growing Silver Tree,s amongst other experiments.

Here is a quotation ..

If I have seen further, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants
Isaak Newton.

Not science garry but Alchemy. So lets hear the tired old denial about Alchemy but I think Newton would disagree and further he knew what he was talking about .. I feel you do not.

gary you really need a girlfriend or if that’s impossible get a puppy,you can even vaccinate your puppy and it will lick those scabs for you

I am well aware of Newton’s Alchemy. He was a strange fellow, but he came up with some useful equations. We shouldn’t really judge him by the standards of today … Alchemy was not a completely crazy notion in those per scientific days. Just as Creationism was quite a sensible view before Darwin worked out what really happened.

Any examples of natural selection conflicting with other scientific disciplines.

Your description of Devine revelation sounds to me like temporal lobe epilepsy.
http://eugrafal.free.fr/Dewhurst-Beard-2003.pdf

gary you really need a girlfriend or if that’s impossible get a puppy,you can even vaccinate your puppy and it will lick those scabs for you

garry I am not judging Newton you are the one doing that, with all this strange talk of yours. Is Alchemy today, now a crazy notion ?

Now now garry, Creationism is a word coined by science and it is used in the same way as anti science or anti semitic .. it is supposed to shut us up.

The correct name for the concept is Intelligent Design .. summer is blooming garry go outside and look .. put yourself to one side and really look.

It is unequaled in the works of puny man .. perfection! And all questions and answers have been long writ in the cloak of Nature. But you seem extremely self centered. And I see you have changed your approach, old chap. Scrolling back to your replies .. its not pretty but one may see where the approach changes,
at certain points, usually when you have taken a stinging.

For anyone who comes here and comments, laid out before us all in this thread, is Trolldom 101. I think your masters would not be pleased garry

What do you get garry .. five cents a post? Your masters want quantity over quality eh garry?
Hammering shit in with a rubber nail.

I do not feel that it works with physics (the magic number generator) or botany .. 16 equal but different pathways and somehow the magic gene and in an instant it chooses the magic bean or slot.

garry what is displayed before your eyes or antennae would take the worlds computing power to compute 16 different paths.

garry tell me why all this negative energy directed at Intelligent Design ? Wots it all about Alfie?

Ah ha so thats what over came me ..temporal lobe epilepsy. .. woo woo eeek! Where do you get this divine revelations junk from ???

One can get Divine Revelations by chewing certain types of mushroom or smoking some great Lebanese Hash .. those messages go to many people in danger and often to people who are high on Nature. I for one have been shown what real power is .. its the immensity of it all .. its a fearful shock garry and as one just gets over that the awe sets in.

Just looking at her in a different way garry. Those highs without the assistance of Mother Natures helpers are the best but its hard working on oneself garry, but it will still be there once you have stopped patting and preening yourself.

Jas what a splendid idea .. the puppy and yup they are not particular so long as the scab is on its master. Obedience and love garry but one has to treat the puppy right. A healing power in a bundle of fur.

Get yourself one for the new Newtonian,\.

Happy Newton garry.

Darwin looked at the natural world in great detail and over many years and continents. He saw evolution by natural selection. He also produced the evidence to back it up.

Intelligent Design is just an new name for creationism dreamt up by the creationists to try and give their faith based nonsense a name that at least sounded scientific.

Still waiting for your example of natural selection being at adds with other science. You can’t find anything can you?

Ha ha.

Darwin did not use such words and neither did he talk of natural selection so stop lying ,, this so called evidence to back it up .. It must have been very controversial evidence because it caused a lot of arguments and decades old animosity and divisions all over ..

Garry what you have proposed is ridiculous, and in that respect the claims that you put forward are not supported by The Science of Probability (Science of chance)

Having played Poker and Roulette.
I learnt that chance is a most elusive card or number like I said natural selection is an idea that needs a better foundation than natural selection.

Darwin believed he could have a super human family by inbreeding,much like your parents gary,he was proven wrong

“Darwin believed he could have a super human family by inbreeding”

Where did you get this nonsense from? Utter BS

gary your parents did not tell you as they didnt want to admit they also got it wrong

Charles Darwin, the author of the theory of evolution, may have been right to worry that his children’s health had been affected by the inbreeding in his own family, especially that of his wife, Emma Wedgwood, who was his first cousin.

gary it is important to know the background of the people you get your info from,this is why you still vaccinate,you believe anything told to you in school,wake up!!
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/05/03/charles-darwins-family-tree-tangled-with-inbreeding-early-death/

Darwin a key source for the eugenicist,s .. amongst some of them, so very strange and with some very dangerous ideas .. like mass euthanasia of useless eaters and those that these people deem as unfit. What the term euthanasia is designed to do, is to soften the horror of the ultimate goal of these people ..

Get in that cell you have the wrong kind of genes/wrong color eyes/wrong color hair/wrong color skin/ .. Youse were overheard bad mouthing der Supreeeeme Leader.

In light of The Probability theory and natural selection which is in some cases no more than a toss of a coin and on the other no more than a game of cards. but someone has to deal them. Who is it ?

Is it just little chemical messengers triggering reactions in its wake as it journeys across genetic distances and like magic the messenger provides the key to the chemical door .. It seems as though the messenger were aware and that they possessed prior knowledge of the destination ??
=============================

Breeding the elite like racehorses, some of us would survive as servants of a Global population of half a billion.

Its all over the internet, some extremely good blogs for and against. Remember that word eugenics because we will be hearing much more of it.

The next insult is the squeezing an manipulating the food supply. Thus causing widespread starvation with the resulting migrations and death of the peoples.

There is no shortage of food .. when one goes to the supermarket and pays $5 a kilo for last years apples, the ones the marketing bods failed to sell to the Americans and Brits. Shortage of Food ?

Funny people the Eugenicists and if they continue they will provoke the torches and pitch forks.

I bet your boss told you that its going to be easy eh! garry? What a shame for you, because people have been waking out all over

That was a straight arrow Jas and leaves much food for thought ..

“”I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection”"
Charles Darwin.

“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars. ”
Charles Darwin

Ivor, you still think evolution relies on chance. You are just showing your lack of understanding of how natural selection works. Learn how it works and then you will stop making such silly statements. I have already provided you with links, but you can always just read Darwin’s book “On the Origin of Species” which is freely available on line and in your public library.

gary Darwin wasn’t even smart enough to take heed from what animal breeders have known for thousands of years,yet you base your entire knowledge on his findings(very clever)
Darwin was wrong about many things
Answer this gary,if Darwin knew we evolved from animals why would he then set out to inbreed his own offspring knowing full well that inbreeding animals resulted in retardation and genetically inferior offspring??????

Jas, we didn’t evolve from animals, you idiot. We are animals.
Although you are so up yourself you think you are something special – something “better”. How arrogant and just plain wrong.
But I expect such nonsense from an anti-vaccer.
Ivor, still waiting for your example re natural selection and the rest of science. And please try and learn what natural selection actually is before answering … It is not pure chance. Jeez, how many times do you creationist morons need to be told this?

Read ‘The Selfish Gene’. It’s never to late to educate yourself.

so gary who/what is doing the natural selection.

” We are animals ” no GaRees, mother of ten.
you are a troll.

gary sorry i meant evolved from monkeys
gary i am special,i think all humans are special and unlike anything on the planet,amazing in fact,.The fact you see yourself and others as no better than animals probably says more about your upbringing than me being up myself

But all that aside you haven’t answered my question
gary just answer the question

oh oh ah ah

Goddog, When the cheetah catches the slow antelope, what or who is doing the selection?

Jas, we did not evolve from monkeys. You creationists are so ignorant! Monkeys and humans evolved from a common ancestor that was neither man nor monkey. Please go and read about evolution. Try any of Richard Dawkins books on the subject.

gary
so you have established we humans are animals that have evolved from a common ancestor of the monkey,so the monkey is our cousin,this could be fact but even your mentor Dawkins admits he does not know this for sure,so who is the ignorant one here.
By the way labeling me a creations is wrong,again you show who is ignorant
Natural selection makes perfect sense to me but i don’t pretend to know it as fact,that would make me ignorant
There is not one example of a genetic mutation or a evolutionary process which increases info in the genome (FACT)
So please gary tell me how you know evolution by natural selection to be fact???

This be the second question i ask of you,im guessing you can not answer this one either
(WHOIGNORANTgARY)

Getting a bit tied up now are we Garry Boyo ?

Mommy Govt could it be that Trolls are the missing lizard link ?.

Jas, garry Nefa Nefa answers questions. He cant answer many of them.
=================================

Ivor, still waiting for your example re natural selection and the rest of science.
Garry we will talk about whatever you want, but first answer the question re chance and natural selection.

=============================

And please try and learn what natural selection actually is before answering …

Garry explain it to me in your own words because I am tired of visiting these science propaganda sites.
================================
It is not pure chance. Jeez, how many times do you creationist morons need to be told this?

Atta boy Gary thats the way to peoples heart.

Garry this so called natural selection .. how can you be so sure about natural selection because its conclusions are subject to The Science of Probability. but it pays no attention to improbability and makes the correct choice every time .. Now just steady on, you may attract the attention of the Casino Mafia.

Garry what is your take on Pleomorphic Organisms ?

Oopps .. lol you first Jas .. I bet his nibs is squirming.

gary
“When the cheetah catches the slow antelope, what or who is doing the selection”
are you a pre-school teacher by chance or is that what you tell your 10 kids when they start asking you questions?
I can see it now.
Kids 1 to 10- Mummy gary what is natural selection?
Mummy gary- humans evolved over time. There is a missing link but once we find it we know it will be true. Anyway did you know a cheetah can catch a slow antelope.
Kids 1 to 10- thanks mummy gary you are so smart.

Gary thinks he is smart, but then most apple mac technicians seem to have an over-blown sense of their own self importance.
For your information loosely speaking we are descended from ‘monkeys’ if you ctrl click on the word monkey (on your mac) and bring up the dictionary definition of monkey you will see
“• (in general use) any primate.”
You see, us normal people can use words like “monkey” to describe our ‘ape-like’ ancestors without freaking out about our taxonomical indiscretions.

You smug prick.

Jas,
“There is not one example of a genetic mutation or a evolutionary process which increases info in the genome ”
Not so. Once again you need to read more widely than Jehovah Witness handouts.

Unweaving the Rainbow by Dawkins, has an entire chapter (`The Genetic Book of the Dead’) devoted to a much more interesting version of the idea that natural selection gathers up information from the environment, and builds it into the genome.
=============================

“And please try and learn what natural selection actually is before answering …
Garry explain it to me in your own words because I am tired of visiting these science propaganda sites.”

Ivoor, try reading some of the science links I have sent you and you will stop asking your silly question.
=============================

“So please gary tell me how you know evolution by natural selection to be fact?”

Jas, Well that would depend on what you define as a fact. Evolution by Natural Selection is, at present, the best explanation of all the evidence. Science never pretends to know 100%. That is the arrogant position of faith based believers.
Try reading some of Dawkins popular books on the subject and you will learn how it all works.

=============================
” subject to The Science of Probability” ???
Ivor, probability is a part of mathematics. Mathematics is a tool used by science, commerce, and many other areas of human endeavour. It is not a “science”. You are a very confused gentleman.

=============================
Jas,
Darwin knew about the problems of breeding between close relatives. He was a pigeon breeder.
“1839 Marries Emma Wedgwood on 29 January. Publishes Journal of Researches, later known as Voyage of the Beagle. Elected a Fellow of the Royal Society. First child, a son William, is born. He and Emma eventually have ten children, seven of whom reach adulthood. Disseminates Questions about the breeding of animals.”
http://darwin-online.org.uk/timeline.html

7 out of 10 was pretty good going in those days before science based medicine.

gARY YOU ARE SO FULL OF SHIT I CAN SMELL YOU FROM HERE
Your mentor Dawkins has admitted there is not one example of a genetic mutation or a evolutionary process which increases info in the genome, you are the one who needs to read his books of evolutionary THEORY again
As for Darwin, i to have been breeding animals for over 20yrs and fully understand the reasons behind inbreeding,i would never inbreed for fear of retardation of my offspring,that’s just one reason the other main one being it is fuckin sick,something your mentor didn’t have a problem with
So you say he knew of the problems and did it anyway(says more about you than anything)
Just think about what Darwin did knowing full well he could have retards for children,but thought himself so superior to others it had to be done (psychopath springs to mind)
Darwin was a sick fuck (your mentor gary)

are all full of total shit – my 3 kids have had no crap injected into them ( oldest 19 yrs) – all of them, top achievers
except she who liked da social LIFE -all very very healthly blah blah get over yourself kidding -have worked with aspersgers – dyslexia – dyspraxia – dysgraphia -add ahdha ( even if they |really are turettes – hey don’tlisten to to the real people who deal withthem every day- including those underpaid angels – teacher aides-DON’T IMMUNISE!

Pip, my ex wife taught children with special needs for well over 20 years so your incisive post hit the bell.

Having to deal with all of the widespread debris of damaged people must be a rather nose into the wind on a bad day. Thank you to all those wonderful compassionate people who took up the challenge and the burden .. and just think .. you may be nurturing a peoples genius.

yeah ivor we do a lot for our students – you don’t even know – where so i begin – why go into it?! not only those with diagnosed learning issues but others …naughty? ..disturbed?.. crap family cirumstances?.. or society?..

Jas, have you read “Unweaving The Rainbow” by Dawkins?

Ivor, there is a chapter in “The God Delusion” about Natural Selection that you should read. When you have I would be interested in your comments.

Tell me Pip, which vaccine causes Downs Syndrome?

oh have just read back sone (sigh) of da crap written in this blog – eg gary – hah) do you even have any offspring? i have raised my kids without “immunisations” blah blah and my kids have rarely been ill and ‘hallehuah’ no sad societal drug induced ‘disease’ we would unlike;y to to see the doctor in 1 a 5 yr period… Gary – what useless propregandic society do you subscribe to?

oh gary -downes syndrome has been around for centuries – it is the other damage ‘vacines’ that are the cause for the other things that are causing that are societies problems societies dis functions eg aspergers adhd blah blah what have these ids been “hit with’ Look back at the early 70′s downes was “usual’ then( as it was the ontly mentally disabled thing going at the time). Since then we have many many syndromes – is it the coke and other crap they drink for breakfast? is it the excess of radical vacines that their parents are conned into given? who knows but – its a large population percentage

http://www.naturalnews.com/034452_flu_shots_vaccines_immunity.html

gary you are a waste of time,you consider yourself informed so i have no problem with you lining up for your vaccine shot,why do you have problems with those of us that wont??Why are you forcing your unquestioned faith of pharmaceuticals on others??Why are you still here??

Bilbo,
The first line of the article you linked to is completely wrong.
The article begins with…
“(NaturalNews) Vaccines are so effective at halting disease that they confer total immunity, say vaccine advocates. “Take a flu shot and you won’t get the flu!”

This is nonsense. Vaccine advocates do not say that. The article begins with a lie and gets worse.

Stop spreading lies and misinformation about vaccination Bilbo.

By the way, homeopathy doesn’t work.

Pip and Jas have remarkably similar writing styles. Odd.

“Stop spreading lies and misinformation about vaccination”

hahahahaaaa, coming from gary the troll that is classic.

http://www.naturalnews.com/034437_Gardasil_deaths_VAERS.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/034416_Alzheimers_disease_homeopathic_remedies_treatment.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/034441_swine_flu_vaccine_narcolepsy_side_effects.html

http://sanevax.org/vaccination-causes-autism-%e2%80%93-say-us-government-merck%e2%80%99s-director-of-vaccines/

http://www.naturalnews.com/033981_Gardasil_vaccine_cervical_cancer.html#ixzz1ccRImZXU

http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/10/07/even-fda-stops-mercks-gardasil-expansion/

Yes gary is a troll,he may be from the bottom of the barrel of trolls but a troll no-less

http://www.naturalnews.com/034038_vaccines_autism.html

http://vaccines.procon.org/sourcefiles/Burton_Report.pdf

http://www.naturalnews.com/033688_HPV_vaccines_Gardasil.html

and my favourite:

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_HPV_Vaccine_1.html

(eight linked pages in all)

and a 2007 paper in JAMA, which concluded: “In women positive for HPV DNA, HPV-16/18 vaccination does not accelerate clearance of the virus and should not be used to treat prevalent infections.”

ref: https://louisville.edu/medschool/med-peds/residents/journal-club/11-07%20Article.pdf

Ha ha Bilbo, what a load of complete nonsense you have linked to. Pseudo science galore. That anyone could believe such obvious rubbish! Amazing …. Are you a time traveller from the dark ages?

Vaccination works.
Homeopathy doesn’t.

And we are all animals evolved from a common ancestor.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

In my experience, from nowhere else is the charge of meanness, cold-heartedness, and lack of compassion shouted at SBM proponents quite as vociferously and with as much venom as from antivaccinationists. Any criticism of their assertions that either mercury from vaccines or vaccines themselves caused their child’s autism is viewed not as a counterargument, but rather as a personal attack on them. The reason is obvious: many of them honestly and deeply believe that vaccines “poisoned” their children their interventions are in the process of “curing” their children, one particularly famous antivaccinationist mother even to the point where she believes that she could make her son autistic again if she were to let up, feed him the wrong foods, or—God forbid!—vaccinate him. Attacks on their beliefs are viewed as direct attacks on them, whether they are or not. The same applies to many in the thrall of so-called “alternative” medicine.

Fisher is wrong in arguing that the clinical evidence supports the efficacy of homeopathy. He does this by cherry picking positive studies (which are part of the noise of any clinical research), a common strategy. Meanwhile, systematic reviews do not show supporting evidence for homeopathy. Worse for homeopathy, there is a clear pattern in the research. The better designed and controlled the study, the more negative the results – a clear pattern of lack of efficacy. Even reviews that desperately try to spin the results in a positive way in the end show there is no evidence to support the efficacy of homeopathy.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/homeopathy-and-plausibility/#more-15406

I could go on, but can’t be bothered tonight. Looking forward to a huge cheque from my masters for my stirling efforts here. Did you know I get paid for every crazy link you mutters post? Hilarious. Ho ho ho

Oh well, just one more for you lovely people.
“The most common reaction I get from people when I tell them about the lack of evidence supporting alternative medicine like homeopathy, spiritual healing, herbal remedies and so on is, “What’s the harm”? Well, granted, homeopathy doesn’t actually contain any active ingredients so you cannot overdose on it. This does not mean the practice is not harmful.”

http://coffeelovingskeptic.com/?p=711

And this…..
”
Peter Harrison says:
August 25, 2011 at 12:46 pm
I absolutely agree that the biggest danger of alternative medicines is the very fact that they are alternatives. Sometimes people choose them as an alternative instead of real medicine, and they end up with an alternative to health. It’s tragic that there have been so many avoidable deaths caused by parents opting only for homeopathy or crystal healing etc.

But there’s another danger that is often overlooked by people who opt to use homeopathy. It’s described as a natural and 100% safe treatment. As Ryan already said, it should be pretty safe because it doesn’t do anything. It’s dangerous if it pulls people from real medicine, but homeopathy itself shouldn’t directly harm people. But it definitely can. I’m sure the Coffee Loving Skeptic is already aware of how homeopathy (doesn’t) work, but for other readers, the ingredient that is added and then essentially removed is one that is thought to cause the symptoms that are being seen in the patient. This means that homeopathy involves dangerous ingredients… ones that would normally make you ill or worse. Fortunately, homeopathy doesn’t end there with its stupidity, and the ingredients are completely removed through dilutions. So homeopathy is technically safe, since those ingredients are long gone. But this is only the case if the people making homeopathic treatments do their jobs properly. What if something goes wrong? What if a homeopathic remedy was accidentally left with actual ingredients in it?

Now, some may find this very amusing. Imagine irate customers screaming, “Hey! This remedy has ingredients and actually has an effect! This isn’t what I wanted! How dare you give me something that WORKS!”

But this isn’t a laughing matter. Homeopathy CAN be dangerous because you never know how well it has been prepared. I’ve overdosed on homeopathic sleeping pills to prove a point, but only when I trusted the source of the homeopathic remedy. What if you take this “100% safe” remedy only to find they’ve made it wrong by leaving you with something that ACTUALLY WORKS? That would be a nightmare, considering these supposedly safe remedies use ingredients chosen specifically because they could make you worse.
“

http://www.tpuc.org/node/298
HOMEOPATHY FACTS LIST – 50 FACTS

By Louise Mclean, LCCH MHMA.

In the last few years there have been many articles in the newspapers attacking homeopathy, claiming it contains nothing more than water, ignoring all the positive studies and saying it works through the placebo effect. So I decided to compile a list of facts to counter this criticism and present the salient points as clearly as possible. So far I have come up with 50.

How Homeopathy Works

FACT 1: Hippocrates ‘The Father of Medicine’ of Ancient Greece said there were two Laws of Healing: The Law of Opposites and the Law of Similars. Homeopathy treats the patient with medicines using the Law of Similars, orthodox medicine uses the Law of Opposites, e.g. antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, anti-convulsants, anti-hypertensives,
anti-depressants, anti-psychotics.

FACT 2: Homeopathic theories are based on fixed principles of the Laws of Nature which do not change – unlike medical theories which are constantly changing!

FACT 3: Homeopathy is an evidence-based, empirical medicine.

FACT 4: Homeopathy is both an art and a science.

FACT 5: The Homeopathic PROVINGS of medicines are a more scientific method of testing than the orthodox model.

FACT 6: Homeopathic medicine awakens and stimulates the body’s own curative powers. The potentised remedy acts as a catalyst to set healing into motion.

FACT 7: Homeopathic medicines work by communicating a current/pattern/frequency of energy via the whole human body to jump start the body’s own inherent healing mechanisms.

FACT 8: Homeopathy assists the body to heal itself, to overcome an illness which brings the patient to a HIGHER level of health. Orthodox medicine suppresses the illness, bringing the patient to a lower level of health.

FACT 9: The homeopathic practitioner endeavours to search for and treat the CAUSE of the disease in order to heal the EFFECT.

FACT 10: Outcomes of homeopathic treatment are measured by the LONG TERM curative effects of prescribing and complete eradication of the disease state.

FACT 11: The homeopathic practitioner treats the WHOLE PERSON, believing all symptoms are interrelated and seeks to select a medicine which most closely covers them all.

Homeopathic Medicines

FACT 12: Homeopathic remedies are cheap.

FACT 13: Pharmaceutical medicines are expensive.

FACT 14: There are more than 4,000 homeopathic medicines.

FACT 15: Homeopathic medicines have no toxic side-effects.

FACT 16: Homeopathic medicines are NON-ADDICTIVE.

FACT 17: Every true homeopathic medicine is made using ONE SUBSTANCE – whether plant, mineral, metal, etc. The exact substance is known, unlike most modern drugs where we are rarely informed of the ingredients.

FACT 18: Any remedy up to a 12c or a 24x potency still contains the original molecules of the substance and this is known as Avogadro’s number.

FACT 19: Every Patient is Unique so homeopathic medicines are individualised.

FACT 20: Homeopaths treat genetic illness, tracing its origins to 6 main genetic causes: Tuberculosis, Syphilis, Gonorrhoea, Psora (scabies), Cancer, Leprosy.

FACT 21: Epidemics such as cholera and typhoid were treated successfully using homeopathy in the 19th century with very high success rates, compared to orthodox medicine. http://www.whale.to/v/winston.html

FACT 22: There are thousands of homeopathic books, available at specialist outlets, not sold in the high street.

Homeopathic Hospitals

FACT 23: There are 5 homeopathic hospitals in the UK – in London, Tunbridge Wells, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow. They cost the NHS under £10 million a year compared to the £100 billion for the total annual NHS budget for 2008!

FACT 24: At one of the earliest debates on the NHS Act of 1948 the Government pledged that homoeopathy would continue to be available on the NHS, as long as there were “patients wishing to receive it and doctors willing to provide it”.

FACT 25: There is a campaign by certain UK Professors to oust homeopathy completely from the NHS after they wrote on NHS headed paper to all Primary Care Trusts in 2006 telling managers not to refer patients to the homeopathic hospitals.

FACT 26: The Homeopathic Hospitals are clean, with friendly, well informed staff. The patients are generally pleased with their treatment unlike many orthodox National Health Service hospitals.

FACT 27: The chances of contracting MRSA or C. Difficile at a Homeopathic Hospital are extremely rare.

FACT 28: Unlike orthodox medicine where two thirds of all conventional hospital admissions are due to the side-effects of pharmaceutical medicines, the bill for negligence claims soaring into billions, one UK leading insurance company reported only ‘a couple’ of claims against homeopaths in a ten year period!

Orthodox Medicine Opposing Homeopathy

FACT 29: In the United States in the early 1900s there were 22 homeopathic medical schools and over 100 homeopathic hospitals, 60 orphanages and old people’s homes and 1,000+ homeopathic pharmacies.

FACT 30: Members of the American Medical Association had great animosity towards homeopathy after its formation in 1847 and it was decided to purge all local medical societies of physicians who were homeopaths.

FACT 31: Big Pharma does not want the Public to find out how well homeopathy works!

Scientific Studies

FACT 32: In 2005 World Health Organisation brought out a draft report which showed homeopathy was beneficial causing Big Pharma to panic and the Lancet to bring out an editorial entitled ‘The End of Homeopathy’.

FACT 33: In 2005 the Lancet tried to destroy homeopathy but were only looking at 8 inconclusive trials out of 110 of which 102 were positive. This was a fraudulent analysis.
“The meta-analysis at the centre of the controversy is based on 110 placebo-controlled clinical trials of homeopathy and 110 clinical trials of allopathy (conventional medicine), which are said to be matched. These were reduced to 21 trials of homeopathy and 9 of conventional medicine of ‘higher quality’ and further reduced to 8 and 6 trials, respectively, which were ‘larger, higher quality’. The final analysis which concluded that ‘the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects’ was based on just the eight ‘larger, higher quality’ clinical trials of homeopathy. The Lancet’s press release did not mention this, instead giving the impression that the conclusions were based on all 110 trials.”
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1375230

FACT 34: There have been many clinical trials that prove homeopathy works. In the past 24 years there have been more than 180 controlled, and 118 randomized, trials into homeopathy, which were analysed by four separate meta-analyses. In each case, the researchers concluded that the benefits of homeopathy went far beyond that which could be explained purely by the placebo effect.

FACT 35: The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital carried out a study published in November 2005 of 6500 patients receiving homeopathic treatment. There was an overall improvement in health of 70% of them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4454856.stm

FACT 36: Homeopathy can never be properly tested through double blind randomised trials because each prescription is individualised as every patient is unique. Therefore 10 people with arthritis, for example, may all need a different homeopathic medicine.

FACT 37: Homeopathic medicines are not tested on animals.

FACT 38: Homeopathic medicines work even better on animals and babies than on adults, proving this cannot be placebo.

FACT 39: Scientists agree that if and when homeopathy is accepted by the scientific community it will turn established science on its head.

Homeopathic Practitioners

FACT 40: Homeopathic Practitioners train for 4 years in Anatomy and Physiology, as well as Pathology and Disease, Materia Medica, Homeopathic Philosophy and study of the Homeopathic Repertory.

FACT 41: Most homeopaths treat patients who have been referred to them by
word of mouth. Most patients seek out homeopathy because conventional treatment has not benefitted them or because it poses too great a risk of side-effects.

FACT 42: The homeopathic community has thousands, even millions, of
written case notes that demonstrate the positive benefits of their treatment. Some homeopaths have video proof of their patients before and after treatment.

FACT 43: Homeopaths charge patients an average of £50 an hour. Specialist
Doctors can charge up to £200 or more.

Popularity of Homeopathy

FACT 44: The popularity of homeopathy has grown in the past 30 years, its revival entirely through word of mouth and estimated to be growing at more than 20% a year the world over!

FACT 45: Hundreds of famous people throughout the past 200 years have enjoyed the benefits of homeopathic medicine. http://www.homeopathicrevolution.com

FACT 46: The aristocratic patronage of homeopathy in the UK extended well into the 1940s and beyond can be easily demonstrated. In the Homeopathic Medical Directories there are lists of patrons of the dispensaries and hospitals. They read like an extract from Burke’s or Debrett’s.

FACT 47: The Royal Families of Europe use homeopathic medicine and Queen Elizabeth II of England never travels anywhere without her homeopathic vials of medicine.

FACT 48: Homeopathy is practised nowadays in countries all over the world. In India there are 100 homeopathic medical schools and around 250,000 homeopathic doctors!

FACT 49: In a recent Global TGI survey where people were asked whether they trust homeopathy the following percentages of people living in urban areas said YES: 62% in India, 58% Brazil, 53% Saudi Arabia, Chile 49%, United Arab Emirates 49%, France 40%, South Africa 35%, Russia 28%, Germany 27%, Argentina 25%, Hungary 25%, USA 18%, UK 15%. http://www.tgisurveys.com/documents/TGIbarometerhomeopathy_Jan08.pdf

FACT 50: The media as a whole has been unwilling to air a defence of the efficacy of homeopathy and the validity of this 250 year old profession.

Copyright Louise Mclean © 2008

Garry you claim that you took homeopathic sleepers .. Can you tell me the name of the remedy and the potency please

Ivor,this dick gary is a waste of oxygen,a troll,he never took homeopathic sleepers nor does he contemplate any of the great info you have been feeding this site
gary lies and has no idea what he is cutting and pasting,the work of a shit troll

Ivor,this dick gary is a waste of oxygen,a troll,he never took homeopathic sleepers nor does he contemplate any of the great info you have been feeding this site
gary lies and has no idea what he is cutting and pasting,the work of a shit troll!!

Lol Jas, yes he is so full of poop he is ready to pop ..

Acupuncture really can reduce stress levels, scientists claim after alternative therapy experiment

Acupuncture ‘reduces’ levels of protein linked to stress
Scientists believe this explains the sense of well-being patients receive from ancient Chinese therapy

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2076923/Acupuncture-really-reduce-stress-levels-scientists-claim-alternative-therapy-experiment.html#ixzz1hIgnPfYz

Ivor, you have a very strange idea of what constitutes a fact. That list of ‘facts’ is a great big pile of rubbish.

“Criticizing homeopathy is always fun, because it is at the extreme absurd end of the silly pseudoscience spectrum, even among some stiff competition. But now homeopathy has a corporate face in Boiron – a large multinational corporation based in France. Boiron is the largest manufacturer of homeopathic products in the world and the second largest manufacturer of over-the-counter products in France.
What they are doing to this small blogger, in my opinion, is nothing less than corporate thuggery. They are using their resources and their corporate lawyers to try to silence completely legitimate criticism of their pseudoscientific products. Of course, they will only succeed in magnifying that criticism.
For example, Riva suggested that Boiron’s oscillococcinum has no active ingredient. Well, let’s see- the company lists the active ingredient in this product as “Anas barbariae hepatis et cordis extractum 200CK HPUS.” The “200C” means that the listed ingredient was diluted with a 1:100 dilution 200 times. Serial dilution is a funny thing – a 200c dilution is the equivalent of diluting 1ml of original ingredient into a volume of water that is the size of the known universe. This is far far beyond the point where there is any reasonable chance of there being even a single molecule of original ingredient left.
So Riva was completely justified (as have many other critics) in saying that Boiron’s 200c product has no active ingredient. In fact it is deceptive to list something that has been diluted 200C as an “active ingredient.”
Not that it matters in this case, because the original ingredient is a pseudoscience unto itself. Mark Crislip gives the full details, here is his summary:
In the 1919 flu epidemic a physician who did not understand that artifacts on the slide, probably bubbles, move randomly due to Brownian motion. Looking at the tissues of flu patients with a microscope, he found what he thought was not only the cause of influenza, but the cause of all diseases: small cocci (round balls) that oscillated under the microscope. He found these wiggling bubbles in all the tissues of all the ill people he examined and thought he discovered the true cause of all disease. Sigh. Yet another cause of all illness. He is the only person, before or since, to see these oscillating cocci. Hence the name.
That’s right, oscillococcinum does not even exist – essentially Boiron takes fairy dust and then dilutes it out of (non)existence. The “anas barbariea hepatis” is basically duck liver, which is supposed to contain the most concentrated nonexistent oscillococcinum. It’s a pseudoscience trifecta.
”
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/homeopathic-thuggery/

Garry ..

Acupuncture really can reduce stress levels, scientists claim after alternative therapy experiment

Acupuncture ‘reduces’ levels of protein linked to stress
Scientists believe this explains the sense of well-being patients receive from ancient Chinese therapy

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2076923/Acupuncture-really-reduce-stress-levels-scientists-claim-alternative-therapy-experiment.html#ixzz1hIgnPfYz

Homeopathic medicine for the flu

Homeopathic medicine in the 1918 Spanish flu

Homeopathic cures had a very high success rate in treating victims of the 1918 Spanish flu.

During the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic, patients treated by conventional chemical-based medicine, or Allopathic medicine, experienced mortality rates that ranged from 30 to 40 percent. In the case of one hospital in New York, the mortality rate went as high as 68 percent.

In sharp contrast, let’s look at the success rate of homeopathic medicine:

A report to the American Institute of Homeopathy in 1921 showed that the death rate of 24,000 flu cases under conventional medical care in that study was 28.2 percent, while the death rate of 26,000 cases treated with homeopathy was just 1.05 percent.

The Homeopathic Medical Society of the District of Columbia treated 1,500 Spanish flu sufferers, of which only 15 died.

At the National Homeopathic Hospital, the recovery rate was 100 percent!

In Dayton, Ohio, Dr T A McCann treated about 1,000 patients and reported NO DEATHS.

In Chicago, Dr Frank Wieland, MD, reported: “With 8,000 workers we had only one death. Gelsemium (a homeopathic remedy) was practically the only remedy used. We used no aspirin and no vaccines.”

In Connecticut, 6,602 cases were reported, with 55 deaths, less than 1 percent.

Dr. Roberts, a physician on a troop ship during WWI, had 81 cases of flu on the way to Europe. He reported: “All recovered and were landed. Every man received homeopathic treatment.”

Homeopaths even question if the 1918 Spanish flu was, indeed, a form of flu. Instead, they have reasons to believe that the 1918 epidemic was actually a reaction to vaccination.

In 1911, vaccinations were made compulsory for US Army troops and the death rate from typhoid vaccination rose to the highest point in the history of the US Army. Henry L Stimson, the US US Secretary of War, reported that seven men dropped dead after being vaccinated. He also reported 63 deaths and 28,585 cases of hepatitis as a direct result of yellow fever vaccination during only six months of WW1.

Unfortunately, these deaths did not result in vaccinations being stopped. Instead, more powerful vaccines were developed and given to US troops. And so, in 1917, 19,608 men suffering from anti-typhoid vaccinations were admitted into army hospitals. The Irish Examiner reported at that time:
When army doctors tried to suppress the symptoms of typhoid with a stronger vaccine, it caused a worse form of typhoid paratyphoid. But when they concocted an even stronger vaccine to suppress that one, they created an even worse disease – Spanish flu.

Homeopathic Treatment of Infectious Diseases and Immunological Disorders

In order to fully appreciate the potential of homeopathic medicine in the treatment of AIDS, it is useful to get some historical perspective as well as to investigate what homeopathy has to offer in the treatment of viral and immunological disorders.

Homeopathy has an impressive history of successes in treating infectious disease, including many of the most serious and potentially fatal infectious diseases known to humankind. The significant successes of homeopathic treatment of the infectious diseases that raged during the 1800s in the United States and Europe created tremendous support for this natural therapy. Death rates in homeopathic hospitals from cholera, typhoid, yellow fever, scarlet fever, and pneumonia were commonly one half to as little as one eighth those in conventional medical hospitals. Besides hospitals, prisons and insane asylums that employed physicians who specialized in homeopathy experienced a similar success rate compared to other institutions under the care of conventional physicians.

Just as homeopathy became known in the 19th century for its successful treatment of infectious diseases of that era, based on growing clinical and laboratory evidence, it is likely that it will become known in this era for its results in treating contemporary viral infections.

The link to the above information ..

http://www.homeopathic.com/Articles/Using_homeopathy_for_ailments/A_Homeopathic_Perspective_on_AIDS.html

http://www.guerillahealthreport.com/search_results.php?site_search=0&go_search=homeopathy

Homeopathy kicked Spanish Flu butt – can it kick Swine Flu too?

Research by the prominent Canadian physician Dr Andre Saine of more than 61,000 confirmed cases of Spanish Flu between 1918 and 1919 has shown that patients treated with homeopathy experienced death rates of 0.7 percent as opposed to more than 30 percent for patients of conventional medicine.

This is a startling difference and if medicine really is an objective science that evaluates all possibilities then homeopathy is surely worth consideration in the treatment of H1N1 Swine Flu that is now upon us, particularly given the close relationship between Spanish Flu and Swine Flu.

As part of the slow movement towards CAM treatment options for a range of illnesses, homeopathy brings with it hundreds of high quality, peer reviewed pre-clinical and clinical studies published in journals like Pediatrics, Rheumatology, Lancet, CHEST, and others showing that homeopathy works.

There is solid epidemiological data to suggest that homeopathy’s success in 1918-19 was not an aberration. Reliable medical records from deadly epidemics throughout the 19th century of cholera, diphtheria, yellow fever, dengue fever, scarlet fever, typhoid, malaria and other infectious diseases repeatedly show that homeopathy was a very effective system for treating disease evidenced by mortality rates a small fraction of those seen in untreated as well conventionally treated patients. In fact many medical schools and hospitals at the turn of the 20th century were homeopathic hospitals because it was so popular and widely used.

In relation to H1N1 Swine Flu then, what role can homeopathy play?

Epidemic diseases are characterized by a fairly uniform set of symptoms across the population and because homeopathy uses the symptom set to decide which remedy to use, it makes homeopathic treatment in an epidemic relatively simple and effective. By gathering together a picture of the symptoms and the variables that occur within these (like the nature of any pains, whether the cough is wet or dry etc) amongst a range of patients, homeopaths can create a range of remedies that will be most useful. Even more excitingly, these same remedies can be used to prevent infection.

Unlike complicated vaccination development programs, homeopathic remedies can be quickly, easily and cheaply manufactured on a huge scale and perhaps best of all, the remedies are not under the control of the vast pharmaceutical companies. So why shouldn’t it kick the Swine Flu’s butt?

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/research/how_homeopathy_might_work.html

Here you go garry straight from the British Homoeopathy Society. Some more homework for you ..please wipe your mouth because your lips look like they are brown .. just ignore the smell of effluent.
=================================
How does homeopathy work?
The dilutions and the memory of water theory

The aspect of homeopathy that is implausible for many people is that the medicines are often – though by no means always – diluted to the point where there may be no molecules of original substance left. One of the leading current proposals for how such ‘ultramolecular’ dilutions work is that water is capable of storing information relating to substances with which it has previously been in contact.1

The structure of water
Recent research on hydrogen bonds in water provides some support for this ‘memory’ theory. The Swiss chemist, Louis Rey, found that the structure of hydrogen bonds in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions is very different from that in pure water.2 He reached the conclusion that the phenomenon results from the vigorous shaking of solutions that takes place during homeopathic ‘succussion’. Moreover, using the laboratory technique called spectroscopy, other researchers have found that different homeopathic medicines and different dilutions of the same medicine can be distinguished from each other, even though all should contain nothing but water.3

Molecular clusters
An alternative mechanism is suggested by the results of research from South Korea. Studies on molecular clustering in water solutions showed that as a solution is made more and more dilute, very stable and larger ‘clumps’ of material develop in dilute solutions rather than in more concentrated solutions.4 This means that residual molecular clusters of the original substance might just be present in homeopathic dilutions. Succussion might also be responsible for creating very tiny bubbles (nanobubbles) that could contain gaseous inclusions of oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide and possibly the homeopathic source material.3

All your pretend science is not worth a pinch of shit Ivor. Real science has proven way beyond reasonable doubt that homeopathy doesn’t work. You can come up with as many cut and pastes from crackpot web sites as you like. The plain simple truth is that homeopathy is total BS.
But a fool and his money is easily parted by a good scam such as alt med. Alternative Medicine produces the alternative to a cure.
The Britsh Homeopathy people are still licking their wounds after being beaten by Mr Singh. They did not, and can not, prove efficacy for their silly remedies.

Acupuncture has been shown to have the same efficacy as sham acupuncture, which is the same as placebo ie no efficacy. Now I expect you to come up with a load of links to poorly designed and executed preliminary studies and anecdotes which prove nothing. Go on, waste some more time. On second thoughts you are getting on in years. Haven’t you something better to do with your remaining days?

There are even more anomalies garry.

The different plants in some cases will require a differing menstruum.

A menstruum is a liquid,which serves as a multipart .. it extracts the goodies from the plant .. it then holds the extract and acts as a preservative and of course finally as medicine.

As a menstruum Hahnemann used Brandy, here in NZ the local brew is 33% the real French Brandy is freely available at 44% it would be fair to assume the Brandy of the time would perhaps be closer to 50% by volume .. that is 50% alcohol and 50% water. The commercial variety will pass muster.

For those that have the glassware then a single distillation would be sufficient. So we want 50% spirits of wine (Spirit of Grape)
I have come across homeopathic remedies made with a cheap and nasty .. made from a lot of strange things .. Milk Whey as an example, it is then sold to various spirit buyers to turn into a range of spirits of every flavour. Not only does the stuff taste and smell foul .. it is foul.

The Spirit of Grape .. Brandy feels very right to me .. it is quite fitting a kind of continuum and some order is preserved, rather than all of those odd shaped molecules made with junk and turning the remedy into junk.

Alcohol and water when taken individually have some solvent powers. Alcohol and water combined can cover a wide spectrum of plant constituents. For example if you wanted to extract a plants gum resins then one would need a high strength alcohol .. circa 90% understandably differing plant constituents require a different strength alcohol for extraction purposes.

The lower strength alcohols are also used .. usually 25% this of course will not be as efficient as a stronger alcohol.

This type of medicine is very sparing on the environment and goes to work at a deep level, it is commensurate with modern lifestyles.

Talking of Life Styles there are people out there who are so poor they cannot even change their minds. The very people who need natural therapies cannot afford it. I recall a man in a flat cap and bearing a leather satchel and he would collect the poor folks medical insurance .. a penny here .. threepence there ..

A weekly free clinic of some of our cities best and recompensed from poor peoples medical insurance .. Surely it is possible ??

It has to be a win win course of action and it allows some bracing to the structure, and the better to withstand what the authorities lay on us.

garry .. I know what you do with your days .. go get yourself a girl as Jas suggested and the hair will stop growing in your palm.

Dont worry Boyo, the girls will take on the most unpromising material if they think its suffering.

Ha ha Ivor. I’ve been happily married for over 30 years. You idiot.

How I pity your wife!

I pity her life .. hup two three four hup hup. Or is it at the stage where she finds it more convenient to manipulate the situation to make her life more tolerable .. Or perhaps she beats you about the head with a cast iron saucepan ??

There is more than a trace of anger and something that has an odd smell about it when you write. I have seriously pondered your predilection for the negative .. you must know it .. no willingness to explore another culture, another kind of mindset .. its all coarse language and insults where you currently are.

In the not too distant future .. money will be tight and everywhere people will be attempting to get a toe hole ..Perhaps the MRSA riddled hospitals will start offering alternative treatments .. perhaps Allopathy will be banned and that Homeopathy is the medicine of the future .. because it is a most affordable option .. and most importantly it can be made in a domestic kitchen in the old tradition of the Household Still distilling)room .. the mistress of the house used turn it into a cornucopia of things, old family recipes for healing balms .. faithfully copied .. dyes, inks,soaps and lotions, perfumes and medicines.

garry .. you have lost the battle, not you personally but the side that you represent.
The Alternatives have at least half the market and it is still growing .. the people are putting their money where their mouths are.

When the medical historians come to write about this shameful period of medical abuse by orthodoxy ..!!

I wonder .. do they still smack babies at birth? Have they given up experimenting on children yet ?

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/blaylock12.html

Smearing of Dr Wakefield Medical study ploys

Big Pharma Vilified Researcher for Threatening Vaccine Program

By Russell L. Blaylock, M.D.

Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:52 AM

http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/health_stories/big_pharma_vaccine_autism/2011/01/13/371064.html

I find it ironic that the media, the British government, and leaders in medical academia jumped on board attacking and destroying Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s reputation based on “fraud” charges related to a study he conducted about the link between the measles vaccine and autism.

It is ironic for a number of reasons. How can the British government, itself drowning in deception at every level, dare accuse anyone of fraud?

The panel assembled by the government and academia to judge Wakefield, ironically, dares to speak of fraud, yet their main complaint is that his findings “might endanger the ‘sacrosanct’ vaccine program,” not that his principal findings were wrong. In fact, several independent researchers found the same measles vaccine-related colitis that he described.

A recently released charge by the BMJ editors is that Wakefield was poised to get huge profits from a product stemming from his research results. I am not here to defend Wakefield, rather, I demonstrate the double standard regularly practiced by his vocal critics.

Virtually every paper published on drugs, such as statins, is authored by individuals having financial links to as many as three to four pharmaceutical companies each. The same is true of papers published by major journals extolling vaccine efficacy and safety. They know these papers violate every ethical principle known, yet they are published in some of the most prestigious journals.

Abundant evidence has shown that these very same people destroy the reputations of anyone producing evidence, no matter how well researched and of the highest ethical standards, if it in any way endangers this vaccine program. It is ironic that these accusers speak of “blatant fraud,” when virtually all of the vaccine safety evidence they use abundantly is fraudulent by careful design.

Scare Tactics

Ironically, even their outcry of the effect of Wakefield’s paper is deceitful. They scream that it caused vaccine rates to fall below the 80 percent level needed for “herd immunity,” when they know that no one has ever proven his paper was the cause.

A growing number of British have suffered from vaccine complications, and they are rightly concerned about vaccine safety. When there was a small outbreak of measles in this country, as few as 300 cases, they screamed it was an epidemic and millions were at risk of dying. In fact, in similar outbreaks studies found that 90 percent of the affected children had been fully or partially vaccinated, and most had mild infections.

When I grew up there was no measles vaccine and everyone in my class got the measles and no one died or suffered serious harm. To imply our society is at risk of millions of deaths should vaccine rates drop is a blatant lie used to scare parents into over-vaccinating their children. They use the same scare tactics based on manipulated data to terrify the elderly into getting a flu shot every year.

Even this year, after we witnessed a 20-fold increase in miscarriages and stillbirths among women vaccinated with the H1N1 vaccine last year, public heath officials are strongly suggesting that pregnant women be vaccinated with both the H1N1 and seasonal flu vaccines. Dr. Garry Goldman, who has done a comprehensive analysis of this event, calls the government’s actions “an act of willful misconduct.” (Go here to read his report.)

Manipulating ‘Safety’ Studies

Anyone analyzing the “vaccine safety studies” done by vaccine makers and vaccine proponents can see that they were purposely designed to show safety by omitting people in the study who truly reflected the population being vaccinated and who were, by all standards of science, at risk of harm by the vaccines.

They do studies that use as placebo controls people injected with a vaccine adjuvant. Placebos are supposed to be completely inert. The evidence shows that the greatest danger from vaccines is from the vaccine adjuvant — so, how can they use adjuvant-injected people as controls? Yet, all of their studies used such vaccinated controls — this is blatantly manipulated, and they know it.

The studies that are quoted endlessly by these elite members of academia and government agencies and used to close the door on the vaccine connection to neurodevelopmental problems are purposefully designed so as to suggest no link between vaccines and any complication.

This falsified research is protected by academia, the media, and government agencies. Yet, they have the audacity to stand in judgment of Wakefield. This is not to say that Wakefield should be free of scrutiny — all researchers should be carefully scrutinized for bias.

Yet, why is there no open disclosure as to the connections between the rabid media, the investigating panel, the Lancet and BMJ journal editors, reporter Brian Deer, the British government, and the manufacturers of vaccines? When one examines these articles professing to prove the lack of a connection between vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders, it is shocking to see that virtually all of the authors have extensive financial connections to the pharmaceutical vaccine makers.

These same companies advertise heavily on all of the major media outlets and the media understands very well that reports endangering vaccine sales can mean a huge loss of advertising revenue. This constitutes deception on a grand scale — and it is practiced every day in this country and the UK.

So, why is Wakefield being attacked and his reputation ruined — especially for an article written 13 years ago? For several reasons, all of which involved the makers of vaccines. Vaccines generate tens of billions of dollars in revenue for pharmaceutical manufacturers every year.

The H1N1 vaccine alone generated $1.5 billion in addition to the $1 billion generated by the seasonal flu vaccine, neither of which has been shown to be either effective or safe. You have been told this safety and efficacy has been scientifically shown, when this is a shocking, provable lie.

Silencing the Dissenters

By careful manipulation of the media, the pharmaceutical companies have created the illusion that the entire link between vaccines and neurodevelopmental brain damage is hinged solely on Wakefield’s article, implying there is no other evidence suggesting a powerful link.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I have written seven peer-reviewed articles and co-authored a recent ebook that makes a powerful scientific case for such a link. A growing number of researchers have also supplied hard data from very carefully done research that strongly suggest a link.

The defenders of vaccine policy used in the United States and the UK have used poorly done, obviously manipulated studies to make their case. If we use the same judgmental standards they used against Wakefield, they would be seen to be guilty of gross misconduct and, most importantly, of endangering the public at large.

Now, by destroying Wakefield’s reputation and accusing him of “crimes against humanity,” they hope to silence any further research in this area. It has the ring of old Soviet-style intimidation and the fear tactics the KGB used against dissidents.

The Case Against Vaccines

The truth is that the Wakefield article’s main theme was that they found bowel inflammation (colitis) in a small number of children vaccinated with the live measles vaccine and that the inflammation was caused by the measles virus from the vaccine itself.

He only proposed, almost in passing, that there might be a link between such bowel inflammation and autism, which is perfectly reasonable, ethical, and supported by other neuroscience research. I can cite hundreds of reputable articles in the medical literature that make similar proposals about less-controversial issues and are never questioned because they do not endanger pharmaceutical company profits.

The truth is that the case against the present vaccine schedule is very powerful and built on the findings of some of the most prestigious researchers in the world. The problem is the media and academia are so controlled by the pharmaceutical giants that the general public has no idea that this research even exists.

It is now known in the research world that questioning vaccine safety is a career killer. Researchers who dare to do so have been fired, denied research grants, their articles are rejected by the more “prestigious” science journals, and they are no longer invited to speak at national meetings. The atmosphere of fear is pervasive — all generated by the pharmaceutical giants and their minions.

By destroying reputations and stopping further research, pharmaceutical-controlled vaccine proponents hope to have a national law mandating all people receive every vaccine recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which is under the absolute control of the vaccine manufacturers.

The data demonstrates that millions of people are seriously injured and thousands die as a result of vaccine complications every year. In many cases the damage caused by the vaccines exceed the risk of the disease being vaccinated against — such as is the case with the chickenpox, tetanus, measles, mumps, hepatitis B, and HPV vaccines.

The United States is the most over-vaccinated country in the world and evidence is growing that we are trading an “illusion of protection” by vaccines for a massive increase in vaccine-related chronic diseases.

The entire vaccine program is based on massive fraud. The so-called H1N1 “pandemic” is a case in point. Even the World Health Organization declared there was a “huge amount” of uncertainty in the seriousness of the “pandemic,” which turned out to be far less deadly than initially feared.

The WHO admitted it mishandled the so-called pandemic and failed to convey its uncertainty to the public. Yet the CDC, the media, medical academia, and the pharmaceutical vaccine manufacturers all participated in this deception.

It is time to wake up and call for some accountability; otherwise the vaccine program will never be safe.

© 2011 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

gary you’ve been happily married for over 30 years?,how many wife’s has this taken?does your wifes happiness count, sisters and cousins don’t count.
———— —-
ANSWER HERE =
~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

May
30
2011
Measles outbreaks, 2011
Published by David Gorski under Public Health,Vaccines
Comments: 51
We frequently write about the consequences and costs of not vaccinating and how the anti-vaccine movement is causing real harm to real people through its assaults on public health. For example, through his fear mongering in the U.K., Andrew Wakefield, aided and abetted by a credulous and sensationalistic British media, managed to reverse decades of progress that had resulted in measles having come under control; as a result of plummeting vaccination rates in the wake of his 1998 Lancet case series, measles came roaring back in the U.K. Now it appears to be roaring back in Europe as well.

It’s bitterly ironic that news of measles outbreaks in the U.S. and Europe have come to the fore even as, over the long Memorial Day weekend, promoters of the scientifically discredited notion that vaccines cause autism gathered in a suburb of Chicago to sell “biomedical” treatments for autism and promote an anti-vaccine world view as part and parcel of the yearly autism quackfest known as Autism One. Adding to the grim irony is that last Thursday Nature published an issue with a special section devoted specifically to vaccines. The timing seemed just too deliciously appropriate to ignore. Think of it. In the Chicago area, there was a collection of anti-vaccine crackpots meeting to present fallacious “science” claiming that vaccines cause autism and all manner of chronic health problems. In contrast, one of the oldest and most distinguished scientific journals in existence publishes several articles in a single issue about vaccines. The karma was even stronger, given that the week before the CDC published a new Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR) last week discussing the status of measles in the U.S.

The Nature vaccine issue has a number of articles on the topic of vaccines, ranging from an editorial, to news items, to scientific articles. For my purposes, three articles caught my attention:

The case of measles
The real issues in vaccines safety
Target the fence-sitters
The article discussing the case of measles is particularly relevant today, as we are in the middle of a resurgence of measles cases, both here in the U.S. and a much worse outbreak in Europe. In the U.S. we have had thus far this year 118 cases of confirmed measles, the most cases since 1996. Of these cases, 47 resulted in hospitalization and 9 in pneumonia. Fortunately, none had encephalitis, and none died, but that’s only because the risk of encephalitis is between 1:1,000 and 1:5,000. In an outbreak of 118, there’s only around a 10% chance (at the most) of having a case of measles encephalitis among the children. However, the more children there are who are infected, the greater the chance of complications such as encephalitis, and let’s not forget that we already have an 8% pneumonia rate.

Fortunately, MMR vaccine uptake in the U.S. remains generally high, although there are increasingly pockets of low uptake susceptible to outbreaks. Indeed, that’s what appears to be happening. As reported in Nature and the MMWR report cited above, measles was in essence eliminated from the U.S. in 2000. This was not easy to do; measles is one of the most contagious viruses that exist. Indeed, it’s the contagiousness of the measles virus that has allowed it to find its way back into the U.S. from other countries, as described in the MMWR report:

Among the 118 cases, 105 (89%) were import-associated, of which 46 (44%) were importations from at least 15 countries (Table), 49 (47%) were import-linked, and 10 (10%) were imported virus cases. The source of 13 cases not import-associated could not be determined. Among the 46 imported cases, most were among persons who acquired the disease in the WHO European Region (20) or South-East Asia Region (20), and 34 (74%) occurred in U.S. residents traveling abroad.

More worrisome, of the 47 hospitalized patients, all but one were unvaccinated, and the statistics were:

Unvaccinated persons accounted for 105 (89%) of the 118 cases. Among the 45 U.S. residents aged 12 months−19 years who acquired measles, 39 (87%) were unvaccinated, including 24 whose parents claimed a religious or personal exemption and eight who missed opportunities for vaccination. Among the 42 U.S. residents aged ≥20 years who acquired measles, 35 (83%) were unvaccinated, including six who declined vaccination because of philosophical objections to vaccination. Of the 33 U.S. residents who were vaccine-eligible and had traveled abroad, 30 were unvaccinated and one had received only 1 of the 2 recommended doses.

Do you see the pattern here?

Leaving a child unvaccinated leaves that child at a greatly increased susceptibility to measles and therefore a highly elevated risk of catching the virus when exposed. This is particularly true when enough people refuse vaccines to compromise herd immunity, so that the unvaccinated can no longer rely on the herd, which they’ve gotten away with doing in the past. Nowhere is this more evident than in Europe, where more than 6,500 cases were reported in 2010, and we have Andrew Wakefield to thank for decreased vaccination rates that are only now starting to recover, as this story in–of all places–The Huffington Post describes:

To prevent measles outbreaks, officials need to vaccinate about 90 percent of the population. But vaccination rates across Europe have been patchy in recent years and have never fully recovered from a discredited 1998 British study linking the vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella to autism. Parents abandoned the vaccine in droves and vaccination rates for parts of the U.K. dropped to about 50 percent.

The disease has become so widespread in Europe in recent years that travelers have occasionally exported the disease to the U.S. and Africa.

Although overall vaccine uptake rates are high, thanks to Andrew Wakefield, there are pockets of children whose parents fear the vaccine more than measles and have therefore not vaccinated. These pockets have been enough to allow measles not just to come roaring back in Europe, but to allow Europe to export its measles to the U.S.

Perhaps the most interesting perspective this week on the issue of vaccine rejectionism is the second article I cited above, Vaccines: The real issues in vaccine safety by Roberta Kwok, who notes in the beginning of her article that “hysteria about false vaccine risks often overshadows the challenges of detecting the real ones.” She begins by citing the case of John Salamone. We’ve met him before in the context of my review of Paul Offit’s most recent book, Deadly Choices: How the Anti-vaccine Movement Threatens Us All. Salamone’s son is an example of a real adverse reaction to a vaccine. Basically, his son got polio from the live oral polio vaccine, a known complication. His son got that vaccine, even though an inactivated polio virus vaccine known to be safer was available at the time, because the oral polio vaccine was cheaper and more easily administered. As a result, Salamone became a real vaccine safety activist, in contrast to the anti-vaccine activists at Generation Rescue masquerading as “vaccine safety” activists. He and other parents worked together to effect change, and the U.S. shifted to the safer vaccine in the late 1990s.

Kwok’s overall point is that these fake vaccine safety scares, such as the widespread belief that vaccines cause autism, have made it more difficult to identify real vaccine safety issues:

Vaccines face a tougher safety standard than most pharmaceutical products because they are given to healthy people, often children. What they stave off is unseen, and many of the diseases are now rare, with their effects forgotten. So only the risks of vaccines, low as they may be, loom in the public imagination. A backlash against vaccination, spurred by the likes of Andrew Wakefield — a UK surgeon who was struck off the medical register after making unfounded claims about the safety of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine — and a litany of celebrities and activists, has sometimes overshadowed scientific work to uncover real vaccine side effects. Many false links have been dispelled, including theories that the MMR vaccine and the vaccine preservative thimerosal cause autism. But vaccines do carry risks, ranging from rashes or tenderness at the site of injection to fever-associated seizures called febrile convulsions and dangerous infections in those with compromised immune systems.

Serious problems are rare, so it is hard to prove that a vaccine causes them. Studies to confirm or debunk vaccine-associated risks can take a long time and, in the meantime, public-health officials must make difficult decisions on what to do and how to communicate with the public.

It’s true, too. So much time and effort of legitimate researchers, not to mention scarce research funds, have been wasted demonstrating again and again that there is no detectable link between vaccines and autism suggestive of a causative relationship. None of it is enough to convince the believers. Whenever yet another in a long line of studies is published that fail to find any detectable link between vaccines and autism or vaccines and other chronic conditions or diseases, the anti-vaccine believers brush it away and demand “more research.” Either that, or they demonize the researchers and those who point to those studies as being “pharma shills” or somehow possessing of nefarious motives of some sort or another. And so it goes.

The article then goes on to describe how public health officials have become increasingly vigilant about vaccine side effects, setting up intensive surveillance systems, most recently and famously for the 2009 H1N1 pandemic. Specifically, scientists were looking above all for evidence of a link between the H1N1 vaccine and Guillain-Barré syndrome, based on studies that suggested a link between the 1976 swine flu vaccine and this debilitating neurological syndrome. Studies thus far have not shown a link between the latest H1N1 vaccine and Guillain-Barré, which is good, but vigilance continues, not just for H1N1 vaccines but for every vaccine. The result of this surveillance has been to find a link between a rotavirus vaccine and intestinal intussusception, as well as a link between the measles, mumps, rubella and varicella (MMRV) vaccine and febrile convulsions. As a result, the MMRV was no longer recommended as a preferred choice.

Unfortunately, links are often not clear, and during the period of uncertainty between the first report of a possible vaccine complication and studies that either confirm or refute the link, public health officials are forced to make decisions on incomplete evidence. One current example is the possible link between the H1N1 vaccine Pandemrix and narcolepsy in young people. It is not yet clear whether this association is spurious or likely to indicate causation. Another aspect of this issue is whether there are genetic susceptibilities to adverse reactions due to vaccines. Contrary to what the anti-vaccine movement claims, scientists have never denied that there might be genetic factors resulting in increased susceptibility to vaccine injury. However, in science actual evidence is required, rather than speculation, and what we have now on this issue is, for the most part, speculation. It’s also not at all a straightforward issue to determine genetic determinants of increased risk for adverse reactions. Just as finding a genetic cause of autism has been difficult and full of dead ends, despite clear evidence of a strong heritable component, finding evidence of a genetic predisposition to vaccine injury is anything but a trivial task. Moreover, even in children who might have such a hypothetical predisoposition to vaccine injury, when the risk-benefit calculation is done it may well end up that the benefits of vaccines still outweigh the risks. Such would seem to be the case for children with mitochondrial disorders.

So how do we convince parents that the fear mongering by the anti-vaccine movement about vaccines and autism (or vaccines and all the other the movement tries to link with them, for that matter) is without basis in evidence and science and that it is safe to vaccinate? I agree with Julie Leask is at the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance, Discipline of Paediatrics and Child Health, School of Public Health, University of Sydney, New South Wales 2006, Australia, who wrote the last article that caught my interest, Target the fence-sitters. This is the way to go; the hard core anti-vaccine believers are not going to change their minds, no matter how much evidence you throw at them. We’ve seen this time and time again right here on this very blog, right here in the comments, stretching back over six years.

That’s why it’s a waste of time and effort to try to change the mind of the likes of J.B. Handley, Jenny McCarthy, Barbara Loe Fisher, Ginger Taylor, and others. There was a time when I thought that I could, but six and a half years of beating my head against the wall has taught me that I’m about as likely to succeed in changing their minds as I am to convince the Pope to become an atheist. It’s just not going to happen. What does happen is that I (and others) are attacked for our efforts. The bottom line is that I no longer care about changing, for example, J.B. Handley’s mind; I only care about countering his influence whenever possible. The fence-sitters can still be reached. They haven’t (yet) fallen down the rabbit hole of pseudoscience, autism “biomed,” and conspiracy mongering. There’s still hope to reach them, and reach them I try to do, using a variety of techniques ranging from pure sarcasm and full frontal assault to humor to dispassionate discussions of scientific papers. What works the best? I really don’t know, because I have no way of measuring. I do, however, keep trying. So do several other members of the SBM blog, who all have different styles, different levels of—shall we say?—aggressiveness in attacking pseudoscientific and unscientific claims about vaccines.

In the meantime, as the MMWR report on the 2011 measles outbreak in the U.S. and the articles in Nature demonstrate, the anti-vaccine movement is doing real damage as it reverses hard-won gains made against measles over the last four decades.

51 responses so far
51 Responses to “Measles outbreaks, 2011”
# isleson 30 May 2011 at 12:53 am
Small correction – MMRV wasn’t withdrawn. The link to febrile seizures was sort of wishy-washy (only showed up after certain doses, iirc) but the numbers were there. OTOH febrile seizures don’t do lasting harm and combination vaccines reduce missed doses. So ACIP withdrew its *preference* for MMRV over MMR and then varicella separately, but MMRV remains a valid choice. If you can get it, anyway; I don’t think Merck has had any to sell in a while.
# hat_eateron 30 May 2011 at 3:30 am
I strongly encourage all other readers who maintain blogs to write from time to time about vaccines, especially if you have children. My post on the MMR scare is often found in searches and it was linked to in many discussions about the vaccine safety. I always check out the reaction and tt seems to me that the voice of another parent is more likely to be considered by the fence-sitters because they are themselves in my situation.
And of course don’t forget to link to relevant research articles!
# Dr Sam Girgison 30 May 2011 at 7:36 am
Thank you for recapping all of the recent events in the news regarding vaccinations. Indeed, vaccines and vaccination have been at the forefront of the medical news headlines these days. An additional irony is that the World Health Assembly was recently debating whether to destroy the world’s last known stockpiles of smallpox. Smallpox is a disease that mankind was able to eradicate from the world due to vaccination. Measles was well on it’s way to being eradicated in the world and had reached that status in the US as of 2000. But unfortantely, due to the fraudulent autism-MMR link we have taken several steps back. Of note, UNICEF has recently published the prices that it pays for vaccines in order to spure competition among it’s suppliers. In this way, UNICEF will be able to obtain cheaper vaccines and be able to vaccinate more children throughout the world. The fight is not over, we shall more forward.
Dr Sam Girgis
http://drsamgirgis.com
# David Gorskion 30 May 2011 at 8:11 am
So ACIP withdrew its *preference* for MMRV over MMR and then varicella separately, but MMRV remains a valid choice.
Noted and wording changed slightly.
# TsuDhoNimhon 30 May 2011 at 9:17 am
Fortunately, none had encephalitis, and none died, but that’s only because the risk of encephalitis is between 1:1,000 and 1:5,000. In an outbreak of 118, there’s only around a 10% chance (at the most) of having a case of measles encephalitis among the children
Europe is right on target, with about 1 death or encephalitis case for every thousand or so cases.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/28/measles-europe-cases-map
# Sid Offiton 30 May 2011 at 6:29 pm
http://kidshealth.org/teen/infections/bacterial_viral/encephalitis.html
Encephalitis is an inflammation (swelling) of the brain. Encephalitis is usually caused by a virus, but other things, including bacteria, may cause it as well. Although encephalitis sounds scary, most cases aren’t serious.
# Sid Offiton 30 May 2011 at 6:36 pm
Tsu
I see 3 deaths in 7,300 cases, making for 1 death per 2,438 cases. I didn’t see how you came up with the 1 – 1,000 number until seeing you were lumping encephalitis in with death. I think death is a worse outcome. And you don’t seem to realize these are only reported cases. Many go unreported. Finally, in the propaganda materials Dr. Gorski mentions, we’re told of 3 deaths per 1,000 measles cases – a number wildly inconsistent with reality. I guess you can win those fence sitters over to your side…if you lie to them.
# Harriet Hallon 30 May 2011 at 7:15 pm
@ Sid Offit,
“Although encephalitis sounds scary, most cases aren’t serious.”
The mortality rate for measles encephalitis is 15%, and 20-40% are left with neurologic sequelae. Sounds pretty serious to me.
“3 deaths per 1,000 measles cases – a number wildly inconsistent with reality”
Whose reality? In developed countries, the overall death rate is as low as 1 in 1000, but is higher in infants and in the immunocompromised. In 3rd world countries the death rate is as high as 30%.
# tmac57on 30 May 2011 at 7:28 pm
Sid Offit-”Measles Still Has a Devastating Impact in Unvaccinated Populations”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1712354/
# Mark Crislipon 30 May 2011 at 7:34 pm
“Although encephalitis sounds scary, most cases aren’t serious.”
What a maroon, as B. Bunny might say
But after the wow shes pretty comment, I expect nothing less.
Clin Microbiol Infect. 2011 Apr;17(4):621-6. doi: 10.1111/j.1469-0691.2010.03276.x.
Long-term outcome of acute encephalitis of unknown aetiology in adults.
Schmidt A, Bühler R, Mühlemann K, Hess CW, Täuber MG.
Source
Institute for Infectious Diseases, University of Bern, Bern, Switzerland.
Abstract
Encephalitis is caused by a variety of conditions, including infections of the brain by a wide range of pathogens. A substantial number of cases of encephalitis defy all attempts at identifying a specific cause. Little is known about the long-term prognosis in patients with encephalitis of unknown aetiology, which complicates their management during the acute illness. To learn more about the prognosis of patients with encephalitis of unknown aetiology, patients in whom no aetiology could be identified were examined in a large, single-centre encephalitis cohort. In addition to analysing the clinical data of the acute illness, surviving patients were assessed by telephone interview a minimum of 2 years after the acute illness by applying a standardized test battery. Of the patients with encephalitis who qualified for inclusion (n = 203), 39 patients (19.2%) had encephalitis of unknown aetiology. The case fatality in these patients was 12.8%. Among the survivors, 53% suffered from various neurological sequelae, most often attention and sensory deficits. Among the features at presentation that were associated with adverse outcome were older age, increased C-reactive protein, coma and a high percentage of polymorphonuclear cells in the cerebrospinal fluid. In conclusion, the outcome in an unselected cohort of patients with encephalitis of unknown aetiology was marked by substantial case fatality and by long-term neurological deficits in approximately one-half of the surviving patients. Certain features on admission predicted an unfavourable outcome.
Ann Neurol. 2007 Sep;62(3):235-42.
Long-term neurological and functional outcome in Nipah virus infection.
Sejvar JJ, Hossain J, Saha SK, Gurley ES, Banu S, Hamadani JD, Faiz MA, Siddiqui FM, Mohammad QD, Mollah AH, Uddin R, Alam R, Rahman R, Tan CT, Bellini W, Rota P, Breiman RF, Luby SP.
Source
Divisions of Viral and Rickettsial Diseases and Vector-Borne Infectious Diseases, National Center for Zoonotic, Vector-Borne, and Enteric Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta GA 30333, USA. zea3@cdc.gov
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Nipah virus (NiV) is an emerging zoonosis. Central nervous system disease frequently results in high case-fatality. Long-term neurological assessments of survivors are limited. We assessed long-term neurologic and functional outcomes of 22 patients surviving NiV illness in Bangladesh.
METHODS:
During August 2005 and May 2006, we administered a questionnaire on persistent symptoms and functional difficulties to 22 previously identified NiV infection survivors. We performed neurologic evaluations and brain magnetic resonance imaging (MRI).
RESULTS:
Twelve (55%) subjects were male; median age was 14.5 years (range 6-50). Seventeen (77%) survived encephalitis, and 5 survived febrile illness. All but 1 subject had disabling fatigue, with a median duration of 5 months (range, 8 days-8 months). Seven encephalitis patients (32% overall), but none with febrile illness had persistent neurologic dysfunction, including static encephalopathy (n = 4), ocular motor palsies (2), cervical dystonia (2), focal weakness (2), and facial paralysis (1). Four cases had delayed-onset neurologic abnormalities months after acute illness. Behavioral abnormalities were reported by caregivers of over 50% of subjects under age 16. MRI abnormalities were present in 15, and included multifocal hyperintensities, cerebral atrophy, and confluent cortical and subcortical signal changes.
INTERPRETATION:
Although delayed progression to neurologic illness following Nipah fever was not observed, persistent fatigue and functional impairment was frequent. Neurologic sequelae were frequent following Nipah encephalitis. Neurologic dysfunction may persist for years after acute infection, and new neurologic dysfunction may develop after acute illness. Survivors of NiV infection may experience substantial long-term neurologic and functional morbidity.
J Neuropsychol. 2008 Sep;2(Pt 2):477-99.
Neurocognitive and functional outcomes in persons recovering from West Nile virus illness.
Sejvar JJ, Curns AT, Welburg L, Jones JF, Lundgren LM, Capuron L, Pape J, Reeves WC, Campbel GL.
Source
Division of Vector-Borne Infectious Diseases, National Center for Zoonotic, Vector-Borne, and Enteric Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Fort Collins, Colorado, USA. zea3@cdc.gov
Abstract
Long-term neurocognitive and functional impairments following West Nile virus (WNV) disease are poorly understood. We assessed quality-of-life indices and neurocognitive performance in a cohort of 54 persons recovering from one of three WNV disease syndromes (fever [WNF], meningitis [WNM], or encephalitis [WNE]) approximately 1.5 years following acute illness. We compared findings between the three syndromic groups; the study cohort and a demographically similar group of 55 controls from a study of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS); and the study cohort and a ‘normative’ control population based on cognitive test data. Persistent symptoms, diminished quality of life, and functional impairment were reported by 50% of WNF patients, and 75% each of WNM and WNE patients. Overall, objective neurocognitive performance did not differ significantly between the three syndromic groups, or between the study cohort and the CFS controls or the normative controls. In some neurocognitive subtests, the study cohort scored below the 15th percentile when compared with normative control data. Most persons who returned to independent living following hospitalization for WNV illness had persistent subjective complaints, but had normal cognitive function. However, a minority displayed subtle neurocognitive deficits more than 18 months following acute disease.
J Child Neurol. 2006 Oct;21(10):910-2.
Childhood encephalitis in Crete, Greece.
Ilias A, Galanakis E, Raissaki M, Kalmanti M.
Source
Department of Pediatrics, University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece.
Abstract
This study included all 18 cases of children hospitalized for encephalitis in the referral university hospital of Heraklion, Crete, Greece, during the 5-year period from 2000 to 2004. Encephalitis was attributed to viral infection (echovirus, herpes simplex virus 1, varicella-zoster virus, cytomegalovirus, and influenza A) in eight children and to bacteria (Mycoplasma pneumoniae, group A beta-hemolytic streptococcus, and Rickettsia typhi) in a further five cases. Multiple hyperintense brain lesions on magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) were associated with a severe clinical presentation but not with a guarded long-term outcome. Five children still presented with mild to moderate sequelae after 1.5 to 5.3 (median 4.0) years. Our findings confirm the elimination of measles, mumps, and rubella-associated encephalitis in the postvaccine era. MRI appeared to be of great diagnostic value. Although no fatalities were observed, deficits did persist in several patients.
# Sid Offiton 30 May 2011 at 8:43 pm
@Harriet
the overall death rate is as low as 1 in 1000, but is higher in infants and in the immunocompromised
No, it’s much lower. Just look at the data from France. Yes, the measles is more dangerous in the groups you mention, but those targeting “fence sitters” are not making that disinction, rather they state deaths in 3 out of 1,000
@Mark
Nipah and West Nile? You must realize encephalitis severity varies with the infectious agent.
# Sid Offiton 30 May 2011 at 8:53 pm
@Mark
Are those at the Mayo Clinic and National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke “maroons” as well?
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/encephalitis/DS00226
Encephalitis can cause flu-like symptoms, such as a fever or severe headache, as well as confused thinking, seizures, or problems with senses or movement. Many cases of encephalitis may go unnoticed because they result in only mild flu-like symptoms or even no symptoms. Severe cases of encephalitis, while relatively rare, can be life-threatening
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/encephalitis_meningitis/detail_encephalitis_meningitis.htm
Encephalitis can be caused by bacterial infection and, most often, viral infections. Several thousand cases of encephalitis are reported each year, but many more may actually occur since the symptoms may be mild to non-existent in most patients.
# David Gorskion 30 May 2011 at 8:54 pm
Sid, I’m never ceased at how casually you dismiss a 1 in 1000 death rate among children as being of no consequence and therefore not worth vaccinating to prevent.
Still, watching you argue with a real infectious disease doctor will be entertaining, I predict. I’m going to get out the popcorn as I sit back and watch Dr. Crislip school you.
# Sid Offiton 30 May 2011 at 9:18 pm
@David
It’s not about dismissing any number. It’s about pointing out when a number is incorrect, unsubstantiated or misleading. Again going back to what’s happening in France, were seeing a death, depending on how recent the numbers are, in 1 out of 2,300 (as per the link above) or 1 out of 1,600 (based on a more recent report of 10,000 cases). And as I must repeat, these are reported cases which represent a fraction of actual ones.
As it relates to vaccination, parents have to decide if that number is going to tilt the risk reward calculation in favor of vaccination. Along with that they have to consider that, regardless of the reason, there were only 150 cases in the entire nation.
Additionally, those suffering the worst effects of the measles are those in unique circumstances. If those circumstance don’t apply to my child, it’s almost certain he or she won’t suffer a dangerous complication.
So we’re left to decide between an illness that’s unlikely to be problematic in a healthy child and a procedure that, like all medical procedures, has risks both known and unknown
As far as being “schooled” a fact is a fact. I did not make up the Mayo Clinic’s assessment of encephalitis nor did I invent the measles mortality data.
# Harriet Hallon 30 May 2011 at 9:26 pm
@Sid Offit,
The data from from France indicate a 1 in 2400 death rate for the 1st quarter of 2011. Based on only 3 deaths, I don’t think this is necessarily representative of the true death rate in developed countries. Other estimates are not “much lower” than 1 in 1000. Anyway, it’s still a significant death rate, especially when you consider the death rate from measles vaccine is zero.
You didn’t acknowledge that the mortality rate for measles encephalitis is 15%, and 20-40% are left with neurologic sequelae. Sounds pretty serious to me. Encephalitis is 1 in 1000 for measles but only 1 in a million for the vaccine.
Since all it takes to expose your child is one kid on a plane from France, it seems to me the vaccine is reasonable insurance
# Harriet Hallon 30 May 2011 at 9:33 pm
@Sid Offit, ” there were only 150 cases in the entire nation.” Yes, duh, because enough people got vaccinated.
# Katon 30 May 2011 at 9:33 pm
Of course, as rational human beings understand, death and encephalitis are not the only negative outcomes of having the measles. Focussing on those two things ignores the more common outcomes, which also come at a cost to society and the individuals.
Even a relatively mild case of measles is not very pleasant (a few weeks of feeling ridiculously ill and lying in a dark room). Not to mention the time off work/school, and the time and effort of others to look after you.
The more extreme side effects of the disease just make for even more compelling reasons to avoid it (by vaccination) where possible.
# passionlessDroneon 30 May 2011 at 9:48 pm
Hello friends –
I have a question. I don’t understand why a single carrier coming back internationally hasn’t been able to start mini outbreaks for a long time now.
I sort of thought that the vaccine only worked ~ 95% of the time; i.e., some individuals, for whatever reason, just didn’t get immunity. While we usually tallk about children, this also means that there are tons of adults walking around out there that have no protection.
Now, some adult or child goes to foreign country X, picks up measles, and sneezes ten times in Laguardia or JFK while getting their luggage or waiting for a transfer. Given the highly contagious nature of measles, and the fact that one in twenty adults who were born in the vaccine era don’t have protection, and thousands of people walking through airport terminals. Shouldn’t we be seeing cases more often than this?
- pD
# Sid Offiton 30 May 2011 at 10:12 pm
@Harriet
there were only 150 cases in the entire nation.” Yes, duh, because enough people got vaccinated.
True, but how does the reason for the risk reward ratio being as it is change the risk reward ratio? I mean regardless of the reason the risk of the measles is close to zero. Don’t I have to take into account the world that is?
As to encephalitis, I
Even if there were a 15% fatality rare it wouldn’t change the fact that most cases of viral encephalitis (according not to me but the sources to which I linked) are mild. That doesn’t mean one would want encephalitis, just that it isn’t the danger it’s portrayed to be. And I’m not sure about that 15% number. The textbook Vaccines reports 4,000 cases of encephalitis in the pre-vaccine era and 400-500 deaths. But at a 15% mortality rate we’d see 600 measles deaths from encephalitis alone, yet pneumonia is said to have accounted for 60% of those 400-500 deaths. And if many cases are mild or asymptomatic aren’t we back to reported cases vs cases?
# Chrison 30 May 2011 at 10:23 pm
pD:
I have a question. I don’t understand why a single carrier coming back internationally hasn’t been able to start mini outbreaks for a long time now.
Because there is high enough herd immunity in most places, and those of us born before 1957 actually had measles. Also the second MMR vaccine has been recommended for about twenty years, that confers about 99% immunity for measles. Here is a graphical way to see how this works, play around with it:
http://www.software3d.com/Home/Vax/Immunity.php
You will notice that the outbreaks do occur in places where like minded people tend to not vaccinate. Just recently a Waldorf School in Virginia has asked all those children who are not vaccinated to stay home for the last two weeks of school (the students had been exposed):
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/may/27/more-area-measles-cases-likely-ar-1070013/
# weingon 30 May 2011 at 10:52 pm
“True, but how does the reason for the risk reward ratio being as it is change the risk reward ratio? I mean regardless of the reason the risk of the measles is close to zero.”
You still don’t know the reason the risk of measles is close to zero? What are you, an idiot?
“Don’t I have to take into account the world that is?”
And the world that is is….?
# Mark Crislipon 30 May 2011 at 10:56 pm
I regret my entry as 1) I had no idea that different pathogens have different results and made a total fool of myself. And
2) Why discuss with someone who finds smallpox victims pretty?
# weingon 30 May 2011 at 11:02 pm
“Additionally, those suffering the worst effects of the measles are those in unique circumstances. If those circumstance don’t apply to my child, it’s almost certain he or she won’t suffer a dangerous complication.”
Very brave of you, bwana. You know what they say about fools rushing in?
# HFon 30 May 2011 at 11:10 pm
Here’s the EUVAC report that the data in the Guardian article linked above is from.
http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/pdf/2011_first.pdf
I’m not sure I’m reading it right, but it looks like for the 1st quarter of 2011, there were 3 deaths in Europe out of a total of 9,349 reported cases.
From the report:
“The deaths occurred in three females aged
18 years, 29 years and 30 years as a consequence
of acute pneumonia complicating measles. All cases
were laboratory-confirmed cases of measles. The
18-year old case was unvaccinated while in the
other cases the vaccination status was unknown.
Moreover, there were 11 cases that suffered acute
encephalitis as a complication of measles: nine from
France, one from Austria and the other from Belgium
The cases from France were reported in four males
and five females, all previously unvaccinated against
measles. Two cases were in 5-year old children, five
cases were in teenagers between the ages of 11
years and 16 years, and two cases were 20 years of
age.”
# Chrison 30 May 2011 at 11:18 pm
Dr. Crislip:
2) Why discuss with someone who finds smallpox victims pretty?
Exactly! This why I ignore the person is not a well respected author, and for some reason thinks that being a real estate investor makes him smarter than epidemiologists, scientists and infectious disease doctors. I will buy you a beer at the Del Mar in July.
# Harriet Hallon 31 May 2011 at 12:25 am
@pD, “I have a question. I don’t understand why a single carrier coming back internationally hasn’t been able to start mini outbreaks for a long time now.”
There have been many such outbreaks. In one recent case, a 7 year old unvaccinated child returning from a trip to France brought back measles to San Diego: he exposed a total of 839 people. 11 unvaccinated children developed the disease, including 3 infants too young to have received the vaccine. One baby was hospitalized for 3 days with a fever of 106.
In addition to factors mentioned by other commenters, even without any immunity not everyone who is exposed gets the disease. Contagion depends on the dose of virus received and many other factors. And people can have asymptomatic infections that are not recognized.
# Harriet Hallon 31 May 2011 at 12:37 am
@Sid Offit, “Don’t I have to take into account the world that is?”
If most people agreed with your stance on vaccines, the world would not be the way it is. Measles would still be endemic in the US. You are willing to benefit from the actions of others while refusing to contribute to them. If more people do as you do, measles will soon come back and you will have to make decisions based on a different world.
“Even if there were a 15% fatality rare it wouldn’t change the fact that most cases of viral encephalitis are mild.”
What are you saying? 20-40 percent of the survivors are left with neurologic sequelae. 15% dead, 20-40 percent permanently damaged, and 45-65% who might possibly be considered to have “mild” disease? If you believe this means that most cases of measles encephalitis are mild, your thinking is warped.
# Th1Th2on 31 May 2011 at 12:57 am
Of these cases, 47 resulted in hospitalization and 9 in pneumonia. Fortunately, none had encephalitis, and none died, but that’s only because the risk of encephalitis is between 1:1,000 and 1:5,000.
I find this really embarrassing for the medical community if someone would die of a benign, self-limiting and uncomplicated measles. So no one died, none had encephalitis so what the heck? That’s not surprising. These patients shouldn’t even be in the hospital. These incompetent doctors are the ones who are putting these patients at risks of complication and death. FUD. Tsk tsk
# liladyon 31 May 2011 at 1:18 am
@ Passionless Drone: The reason why major outbreaks are often prevented is that the United States has an excellent reporting and surveillance system
Whenever there is an exposure aboard a plane, the CDC is notified, which in turn notifies each State’s Health Department. The CDC epidemiologists begin the process by contacting the airline for the passenger manifest (listing of names and addresses of every passenger aboard the flight). Within hours the CDC notifies the home countries of foreign passengers that there was an exposure aboard a flight.
The State Health Department in turn notifies each county health department via telephone, providing the name, address and telephone number of the county resident(s) who were exposed to a measles case.
Oftentimes, it is a local hospital’s Emergency Room physician/ infection control nurse or a private physician who notifies a county health department about suspicious rashes along with other early symptoms such as choryza or Koplik’s spots indicating measles infection. Measles is a Reportable Disease requiring an immediate telephone report to the county health department. The physician or the infection control nurse will do some preliminary investigating about history of immunization, exposure, recent travel, etc. and that information is relayed to county epidemiologists to begin the rather extensive investigation.
Appropriate lab specimens will be obtained from the patient for proper diagnosis in a county lab or hospital lab specializing in virology technology. Very often the process of notifying the State Health Department, the CDC, the airline and foreign passengers, starts at the County health department.
New York State Department of Health has some printed guidelines for the epidemiology, case surveillance and outbreak containment of measles available on the web:
NYS Department of Health-Measles Outbreak Control Guidelines-January, 2011.
You will see in those guidelines, how special measles immunization clinics and the providing of immune globulin can contain a measles outbreak.
Children who are not immunized against measles because of a medical or philosophical exemption are not permitted to attend school and a quarantined in the home.
Local health departments immediately issue a press release to local media to alert people of possible exposures in shopping malls, or at a physicians office, at a school or any congregate enclosed area. The local health department has around the clock “on call” coverage specifically for measles reports and other highly virulent infectious diseases, in order to facilitate timely notification and quick response to public health emergencies
# Jan Willem Nienhuyson 31 May 2011 at 1:42 am
I doubt that one can say that many cases go unreported. In the Netherlands (and I don’t doubt the rest of Europe as well) health authorities must report each case of measles, so the source of contagion can be located. It is possible that some parents or people will not call the doctor in case of high fever and a rash, and if they just stay home and not cause any other infection they might go undetected.
In the Netherlands national immunization against measles was started around 1977. Since then we had two major outbreaks: 1988 (1500 cases) and 1999/2000 (3400 cases, 3 deaths). Since 2000 the numbers have been very low: between 1 and 20 per year, with 209 in 2008. Note the 11 years periodicity.
In the Netherlands we have roughly three groups who systematically oppose vaccination:
1. our national Bible Belt (an area with about 1.4 million people and an estimated 20,000 children without BMR, i.e. about 12% of the under-10)
2. anthroposophs
3. antivaxers
Together they produce a slowly growing reservoir of unvaccinated people. One gets an epidemy when every sick person infects at least one other person. So sooner or later there are so many unvaccinated people that a single imported case can start the epidemy.
In particular it is to be feared that the epidemy in South East France (in the area Rhônes-Alpes 78 cases per 100.000 in this year already) will carry over to the Netherlands.
# HFon 31 May 2011 at 1:48 am
The whole hospitalization thing is confusing to me. It seems like about 40% of the U.S. cases have been hospitalized this year.
According to the EUVAC report, the hospitalization rate for all of Europe was 22% in the first quarter of 2011 but the rates ranged from 0% in one country to 100% in others. I don’t get it.
# pmoranon 31 May 2011 at 2:18 am
The deaths occurred in three females aged
18 years, 29 years and 30 years as a consequence
of acute pneumonia complicating measles
Note the ages. Unless something has changed, these so-called “childhood illnesses” are liable to be much more serious in adults. This could help explain high hospitalization rates.
A measles epidemic could well be devastating if a weakly immune elderly population is allowed to develop.
# Chrison 31 May 2011 at 2:37 am
HF:
According to the EUVAC report, the hospitalization rate for all of Europe was 22% in the first quarter of 2011 but the rates ranged from 0% in one country to 100% in others. I don’t get it.
Would you believe each country has a different system of public health, medical availability and standards of disease notification? It is eerily like they are all separate countries! For some reason I would believe Germany has different reporting standards than Bulgaria, and France differs from the UK.
I don’t mean to be glib, but as a person who spent my youth in multiple countries, and has traveled quite a bit: I realize that there are differences between geographic bureaucracies.
# Barbara.Anne.Mayson 31 May 2011 at 2:58 am
Greetings from Australia. Here, those people campaigning against the anti-vaxxers have developed effective campaign techniques. You can follow them at their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/stopavn#!/stopavn?sk=info
One member has made a study of Australia’s leading anti-vax campaigner, (American expatriate Meryl Dorey) and published his findings on her veracity at http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2011/05may.htm#21dorey
# HFon 31 May 2011 at 4:24 am
Chris:
No worries, you didn’t sound glib to me.
I googled around a bit and figured this out. So, it looks like the 100% hospitalization rate for Bulgaria is likely accurate. I found this article:
NOSOCOMIAL TRANSMISSION OF MEASLES AMONG HEALTHCARE WORKERS, BULGARIA, 2010
“Of the 24,047 cases investigated, 89.3% belonged to the Roma ethnic community. The majority (86.8%) were hospitalised, mainly due to epidemiological considerations – patients from overcrowded households with poor living conditions and inadequate access to medical care.”
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=19842
I think the Roma are the group who are sometimes known as gypsies. I guess the best way to isolate the Roma who are diagnosed with measles is to hospitalize them.
Germany, France and the UK all have similar hospitalization rates, around 20%, similar to the European average.
# destaon 31 May 2011 at 8:56 am
“Additionally, those suffering the worst effects of the measles are those in unique circumstances. If those circumstance don’t apply to my child, it’s almost certain he or she won’t suffer a dangerous complication. ”
What a great idea. Then your child, with few complications to none, can infect plenty of other kids, who can infect other kids, so that the disease can make its way over to the children who will suffer the worst effects and possibly die. Those kids don’t belong to you, so why should you care?
# rorkon 31 May 2011 at 9:03 am
“Do you see the pattern here?”
I was actually disappointed that the MMWR did not attempt to estimate the number of non-vaxed people expected under the null hypothesis of no vax effect. We are supposed to be impressed that too many seem non-vaxed, but it’s left to (every!) reader to figure out how impressed we should be. (Perhaps it’s their job to just report the facts, not to do a study – I’m sympathetic there.)
# omakiion 31 May 2011 at 10:27 am
Dr. Gorski –
Great post today. I think arguments like this – scientifically sound, but with pathos – are the ones that will help convince the fence sitters.
# Shermer tries to figure out why people believe what they doon 31 May 2011 at 12:48 pm
[...] review at Science-based Medicine is underscored by a couple of posts on vaccination. Measles outbreaks, 2011 takes a look at how the anti-vaccination ethos is causing harm by resulting in measles outbreaks. A [...]
# The Blind Watchmakeron 31 May 2011 at 8:13 pm
Anyway….
So the Huffpo must have some new writers.
# aeauoooon 01 Jun 2011 at 3:10 pm
“The fence-sitters can still be reached. They haven’t (yet) fallen down the rabbit hole of pseudoscience, autism “biomed,” and conspiracy mongering. There’s still hope to reach them, and reach them I try to do, using a variety of techniques ranging from pure sarcasm and full frontal assault to humor to dispassionate discussions of scientific papers.”
As someone who works in a local health jurisdiction and is tasked with addressing vaccine-hesitancy in this county, you and the other members of the SBM blog continue to be an excellent resource for my work.
Thanks for calling my attention to the Nature issue.
# Calli Arcaleon 01 Jun 2011 at 3:47 pm
It’s funny (not “ha ha” funny, though) that Sid thinks encephalitis is no big deal. Most cases are mild, he says. Well, over 50% anyway, as long as you define “mild” as “survive with no lasting impairment”.
I would fall in that category. I had meningitis which progressed to encephalitis when I was four. I survived, and have no lasting sequelae. In fact, I was able to enter kindergarten the following September with the rest of my peers.
But it was not mild. I spent two weeks in the hospital, most of which I only dimly remember as a series of strange images because I had a temperature of 107 and was hallucinating. I developed a terrible phobia of the smokestack for the local coal-fired power plant, and of clouds illuminated from beneath by city lights, because that was what I could see out the window of my hospital room. I remember one night, terrified of the scene that I could not understand, screaming for the nurses to come close the drapes, utterly terrified . . . .
I also remember trying to fight the nurses putting in a new IV line. My veins were not holding up well, and they were low on supplies, and in those days they didn’t have flexible catheters — you actually had the needle stay in your vein the whole time, so you had to have the affected arm splinted so you wouldn’t bend it and puncture the vein.
I came quite close to dying. To this day, the cause is unknown; the hospital was coping with an influenza outbreak and managed to lose both CSF samples that were taken from me. It was treated initially on the assumption of it being Hib — I was put into isolation, and put on intravenous antibiotics. But the etiology ended up looking more viral.
But hey, that was a mild case! Flu-like symptoms. No lasting sequelae, and of course I lived. God forbid anyone get a severe case, if that’s what a mild one is like.
# The Frugal Dietitian » Blog Archive » Measles outbreaks, 2011on 01 Jun 2011 at 3:58 pm
[...] read more here [...]
# Paddyon 04 Jun 2011 at 5:22 am
I fear this is a public health battle which is going to rumble on and on. All this disinformation provided by quacks pushing “alternatives” to vaccines and, often, to modern medicine in general reminds me increasingly of the disinformation campaigns conducted by the tobacco industry a few decades ago. We’re up against vested interests here.
# liladyon 04 Jun 2011 at 6:05 pm
I read the Frugal Dietician link provided by the poster above. It points out the irony of the loonies meeting in Chicago to discuss the now thoroughly debunked theories of the vaccine-autism links, versus this latest report of 118 confirmed cases of measles YTD in the United States.
I’ve also visited the web site of one of the sponsors of the Autism One Conference, to view today’s latest “revealing” article about aluminum in vaccines and latex ports on vaccine vials which are “contaminants leading to autism” according to them. Simply more of the same drivel and bogus voodoo medicine.
Calli Arcale mentions her experience with encephalitis which did not progress to encephalopathy. My cousin, long before measles vaccine was licensed, was diagnosed with measles encephalitis which led to encephalopathy and lasting sequelae. I lost my childhood friend to polio before the availability of the Sabin polio vaccine.
I worked as a public health nurse involved in investigating and reporting of vaccine-preventable diseases and witnessed the dramatic downtown in morbidity and mortality, once the HIB vaccine was licensed.
We are now facing public health emergencies, due to the activities of the anti-vaccine crowd.
# Th1Th2on 04 Jun 2011 at 8:02 pm
Calli Arcale,
But hey, that was a mild case! Flu-like symptoms. No lasting sequelae, and of course I lived. God forbid anyone get a severe case, if that’s what a mild one is like.
Despite the interventions, no diagnosis was made?! Glad you made it alive after all those shots in the dark.
# liladyon 05 Jun 2011 at 12:37 am
@ Calli Arcali: You survived encephalitis, but so many people don’t…it is a medical emergency, not the mild disease that some posters here have stated.
It is very traumatic for a youngster…or an adult…to undergo lumbar punctures. Sometimes, when a patient’s brain swells due to viral or bacterial disease, physicians will not perform a lumbar puncture, due to the risk of herniation of the brain stem. They treat with broad spectrum antibiotics and provide ventilator support to these very ill patients.
I am very disheartened that the means (vaccines) are now available to decrease the incidence of meningitis, encephalitis and septicemia, but the activities of Wakefield and his cohorts have impacted negatively on the rates and timeliness of childhood immunizations.
# WilliamLawrenceUtridgeon 07 Jun 2011 at 10:45 am
What I find horrifyingly amusing from Sid and Th1Th2 isn’t the numbers bandied about, the hypothetical death rates being lower than expected or higher than expected, the “it’s not that bad” bleating, completely ignoring the parents who have to watch their children’s brains come close to boiling or the children themselves’ suffering. I find it horrifyingly amusing that they are stating one, three, ten, however many completely preventable deaths aren’t that many.
Every single person who dies from measles and related complications did not have to die. But whatever, that’s not important right? So long as their precious fluids survive.
The whole point of vaccination is to prevent unnecessary suffering (which is nice) and protect the 0.1% of the population who get a normally “safe” disease and friggin’ die from it. So, Sid, let’s assume only 1% of people with measles gets encephalitis as a complication, and only 0.1% of people with that complication die from it. Congratulations, in the United States, you just killed (300,000,000 * 0.01 * 0.001) three thousand people. If we’re talking China or India, that’s probably around ten thousand. World-wide, 60,000+ deaths from one disease alone.
Good job. Just let me know how many people are “acceptable losses” before we hazard the “risks” of vaccinating.
# Scotton 07 Jun 2011 at 11:09 am
Just let me know how many people are “acceptable losses” before we hazard the “risks” of vaccinating.
If they were being honest, they’d answer something on the order of 6 billion. More precisely, everyone but themselves and their immediate families.
# WilliamLawrenceUtridgeon 07 Jun 2011 at 12:14 pm
I also like Th1Th2′s response to Calli Arcale. Because apparently he lives in a world that lacks uncertainty, where all questions are due to incompetence and not incomplete knowledge, where all diagnostic issues are easily resolved without any time constraints. Apparently medicine, for Th1Th2, is easy. Would that all medicine be handled by such experts lacking in doubt. It reminds me of the 19th century, when science was disproving earlier theories but hadn’t yet developed effective, evidence-based treatments. The therapeutic nihilism resulted in a number of countries simply dissolving any regulation over doctors and the best interventions consisted of doing nothing.
Because nothing, apparently, is all medicine has to offer.
# Science-Based Medicine » Vaccine Confidence: Attitudes and Actionson 07 Jul 2011 at 8:30 am
[...] because there’s a body count affiliated with their actions. When vaccination rates drop, communicable diseases re-emerge, and people suffer. While anti-vaccine sentiment will probably persist as long as vaccines are [...]

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110525/full/473427a.html

Anti vaccers should all spend some time in Pakistan.

Gary, hop over to Nigeria and join the program there. To keep the myth alive the industry had to reintroduce the virus distributing it in the vaccine.

Precisely Gerard,

I spent some time in Kenya and the monsters were there too with their faux killer vaccines. The street markets had lots of stall selling out of date pharmaceuticals .. one deadly insult after another.

But we can take heart the whispering word is out .. they Know they are anyones guinea pigs.

I was having heated words with one of garry,s mindset and the rat bag said .. “of course we use humans, they are cheaper than monkeys”.

Then on top of this they have introduced GM crops .. the situation in India also is really serious, these maniacs will pay for what they have done .. we have some manacles and a box in the International Courts .. Genocide is the charge.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/scientists-defend-armageddon-virus-secrecy-20111222-1p6r6.html

Scientists defend ‘Armageddon virus’ secrecy 22 Dec 2011 Top US scientists have defended their bid to stop details of a mutant bird flu virus from being published and called for global co-operation to ward off an uncontrollable pandemic. Meanwhile, scientists involved in the experiments said they were co-operating with government officials and the editors of the journals Science and Nature to pare down their research for publication in the coming weeks. The controversy arose when two separate research teams – one in the Netherlands and the other in the United States – separately found ways to alter the H5N1 avian influenza so it could pass easily between mammals.

http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_articles/Doctor%27s-Data-v-Barrett/santaclausgift.htm

Santa Claus Delivers Stephen Barrett’s Ass On a Platter…

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Friday, December 23rd, 2011

Yes, the title of this article is rude. But I’ve got some last minute Christmas shopping to do, and I’m not going to nice it up. The reality, of course, that it was not actually Santa Claus that delivered Barrett’s parts, but a Federal Judge. Considering the timing of the Judge’s actions, I’ll stick with the title.

Last January 31st, 2011 Stephen Barrett, of quackwatch.com infamy, filed a Motion to Dismiss in its entirety, the Doctor’s Data v Stephen Barrett Federal court case. Barrett’s reasoning (if you could call it that) was that he was protected from lawsuits because he, Barrett, was “Assisting Government.” Laugh here.

More, it was clear to me, was that Barrett was demanding that the Federal Court declare him, Stephen Barrett, as the undisputed “Czar/God of US Health Care.” Barrett, too, demanded that both the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF), and Quackwatch Inc, be removed from the case. More, Barrett demanded “Sanctions” against Doctor’s Data and their lawyers, blah, blah, blah…

A new Judge had taken over the case, so there was a delay in the Judge’s Decision in Barrett’s Motion to Dismiss. But we need to wait no longer. The Decision is in.

Barrett lost…

Yup, Stevie was NOT declared the undisputed “Czar/God of US Health Care.” Neither the NCAHF, nor Quackwatch Inc was removed from the case – and this is of utmost importance, as I will explain below.

Now, Discovery will begin – IN EARNEST.

And Now things will get VERY interesting…

In an earlier article titled “Barrett’s Sweaty Desperation…” explaining the case, I had said:

Where’s The Beef? It’s Right Here…

In summary, the case against Barrett, so far, simply points out that he, Barrett, and his minions, masters and henchmen are operating a sleazy scheme for profit. Below, in what is called “The Background,” you will find a detailed explanation of the point of the case as the attorneys for Doctor’s Data, are laying it out for the Judge right now.

But don’t be fooled – for although this part of the case is very substantial it is just a step to get to the real meat of the case, which will come to light during the Discovery phase. And Barrett, his minions, masters, and henchmen are in an absolute panic about Discovery – for it will be there that vital information to increase the scope, and the focus of the case will be uncovered.

Why? Because during “Discovery” Barrett will be required by the Federal Court to answer virtually thousands of questions about how he, his minions, masters, and henchmen operate – and he will be videotaped. He cannot refuse, nor lie, for if he does either it is common practice for the Court, in these kinds of instances (Contempt of Court), to clamp the offender into the local jail until they straighten out their attitude.

So, Discovery will be the beginning of the end for the Quackbuster Conspiracy. Enough information will come out of that process to justify, I think, hundreds, if not thousands, of new lawsuits, financially devastating Barrett’s operation.

Then too, I predict, Discovery will show that Barrett, in fact, is merely a figurehead, a minor player in the ruse, and most likely was NOT majorly responsible for these writings – so, I think, the focus of the case will change and many more Defendants will be added.

Then too, is the issue of the conspiratorial “Google Bombing,” where Barrett’s minions and masters forced Barrett’s sleazy writings to the first page of the search engines. That issue, although mentioned, has not yet been dealt with. Discovery will bring this process, and name the conspirators, to light. Once that happens, I predict, the case will change significantly.

The Stalling is Over – Discovery Begins…

Well, actually, you can be sure that the stalling is NOT over. Just the stalling to get to the point to open the Discovery door is over. Now stalling each step of discovery will begin. Why? From Barrett’s, the NCAHF Board Member’s, the Quackwatch Inc Board members, and the skeptic’s viewpoint it is all downhill. Right this moment they are looking around at their assets realizing that it is just a matter of time before they need to pick out a bridge to live under.

Why? There is a twenty million dollar claim to pay up.

AND, there is another issue that now needs to be dealt with – the fact that Barrett’s minions and henchmen, after the case was filed, tried to achieve what is known as the “Streisand Effect” running Doctor’s Data out of business. In an earlier article I had said:

(1) What the Defense (Barrett’s legal team) is doing is to stall, stall, stall, stall, stall with every legal trick they can think of. Why? I believe that Barrett’s Masters thought they could run Doctor’s Data out of business, during the case, by making an increased attack on them on the internet. As you recall, the “Skeptics,” as I reported in an earlier article called “Quackpots in a Tizzy Over Barrett Getting Sued…” had organized an attack called a “Googlebomb.” Below is an excerpt:

Besides the fact that “Orac” whined, like a girl, through the entire article, his comments, it looks to me, are more than enough to get him added on as a Defendant in the case. I can see that coming. But better, and this where I give him the “dumb of the dumbest” rating, was his last paragraph saying:

ADDENDUM: You can help Dr. Barrett, too. If you’re a blogger, please write about this.

What “Orac” was doing was soliciting MALICE – and he was successful. The kiss-ups went to work organizing what’s called a “Googlebomb” insuring that their totally libelous version of Doctor’s Data, and their version alone, dominated the internet search engines.

This is VERY important. Because it was organized legal malice. Stupid? You bet. Legal “Malice” is just about indefensible in Court, and comes with the penalty, in virtually every jurisdiction in the US, of bringing on massive punitive damages without having to prove any damages in the first place. The punitive damages are applied JUST BECAUSE there was Legal Malice. Like this:

“Malice – A desire to harm others or to see others suffer: despitefulness, ill will, malevolence, maliciousness, malignancy, malignity, meanness, nastiness, poisonousness, spite, spitefulness, venomousness, viciousness. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude.”

“Malice, to most people, is a nasty feeling of wanting to hurt another person. What many people do not know is that if malicious action is taken against one party, the other party has the civil right to bring a lawsuit. This is called legal malice, or one party’s intent to cause harm to another party. What is important to note here is that malice is the intention of causing harm. Criminal offenses of causing actual harm to another party is separate from legal malice. It is important, also, to determine whether the malice is expressed or implied. In expressed malice, one party gives an outward indication of the intention to cause harm to another party. This may include an oral statement or printed statement. Implied then, is the implied intention of harm in a killing or harming of another party. ”

Doctor’s Data could subpoena, following the “Googlebomb” attack mentioned above started by Sanofi-Aventis agent David Gorski (Orac the Nipple Ripper), the “Skeptic” network files, garnering information on who, exactly, the hidden “skeptics” actually are, and how they are funded.

Why is it important that the NCAHF and Quackwatch, Inc were left in the case?

Because this is going to be a jury trial. Barrett does not testify well in court, at all. The jury could very well award Doctor’s Data way more than what they asked for (Five Million in damages, and Fifteen Million in Punitive Damages). Barrett can’t even pay his attorneys fees much less a court judgment. The skeptics involved in the “Googlebomb”, for the most part, it looks to me, are people who can’t hold a job – so that’s no help. Which leaves a few “skeptics” and the individual Board Members of the NCAHF and Quackwatch, Inc.

Much more coming.

Stay tuned.

Tim Bolen – Consumer Advocate

PS – And have a happy holiday – whatever that may be.

What a lot of boring, misguided conjecture.
Nice dodging of the Singh v Brit Homeopaths triumph though.
Homeopathy has not been shown to have any efficacy and so can not be considered as medicine. It is alternative medicine and can only lead to the alternative to health.

Get yourself some holiday listening here ….
http://moremark.squarespace.com/quackcast-list-mp3/

QUACKCAST PODCASTS (MP3)

QuackCast 1. 

Opening Salvo. A review of Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine (SCAMS) 5/4/06

QuackCast 2. Echinacea. A review of Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine (SCAMS) 5/6/06

QuackCast 3. Homeopathic Theory . Of all the kinds of alt.med available, Homeopathy has to be the most retarded. And thats saying something. Listen and see why. 5/7/06

QuackCast 4. Homeopathy Clinical Trials. Clinical trials of homeopathy are of poor quality and treat self limited diseases. The better the study, the less well homeopathy does. In the best meta analysis to date, it is concluded that homeopathy doesn’t work. Duh. 5/12/06

QuackCast 5. Placebo Effect. Alt.med effects are often attributed to the placebo effect. Turns out the placebo effect does not exist. So when the effect of alt.med is equal to placebo effect, it is the same as saying it is equal to nothing. How true, how true. 5/22/06

QuackCast 6. Prayer. A review of the medical literature suggests that prayer is not an efficacious therapeutic intervention for medical illnesses. And I am almost certainly going to h e double toothpicks, if you know what I mean. 6/25/06

QuackCast 7. Theory of Acupuncture. The theory of acupuncture is reviewed and found to be wanting when compared with reality. It has no biologic or physiologic plausibility. 7/11/06

QuackCast 8. Acupuncture’s Efficacy. The efficacy of acupuncture is reviewed and found to be wanting when compared with reality. It doesn’t work and has the potential to cause real harm. 8/5/06

QuackCast 9. Lies, Damn Lies and the use of alt med. 34% to 42% of Americans use alternative medicine each year. True? Of course not. See how data is misrepresented to support nonsense. 8/31/06

QuackCast 10. History and Theory of Chiropractic. The theory of chiropractic is reviewed and found to be wanting when compared with reality. It has no biologic or physiologic plausibility. But it doesn’t stop the AMA having its legal rear handed them by the Chiropractors. 9/30/06

QuackCast 11. Evidence to Support Efficacy and Complications of Chiropractic. Does Chiropractic work for low back pain? Other diseases? Is it safe? What does it take to get into Chiropractic School? The answer to all this and more in this podcast. 11/20/06

QuackCast 12. How to Identify Quackery and Homeopathic Horrors . Seven rules of thumb to identify quackery, with examples. Also more on the potential dangers of homeopathy. 12/24/06

QuackCast 13. Herbal “Remedies”. Like “Fresh” Fish. A tour of some popular herbs. Reviewing the medical literature with commentary of the following herbs: echinacea, ginkgo, st johns wort, black cohash, saw palmetto, and glucosamine/chondroitin. 1/22/07

QuackCast 14. Naturopathy Quacks of all trades, masters of none. A review of the practice of naturopathy, not particularly favorable for some odd reason. 2/27/07

QuackCast 15. Magnet ‘Therapy’. review of magnets as a medical intervention. I really should have called it the crap cast, because this is crap. Not the podcast. Magnetic therapy. 4/2/07

QuackCast 16. Probiotics. A review of probiotics: theory, use and complications. 5/15/07

QuackCast 17. Update 1 NUCCA and Hypertension. An evaluation of “Atlas vertebrae realignment and achievement of arterial pressure goal in hypertensive patients: a pilot study.” Published in 2007 in the journal of Human Hypertension. 6/28/07

QuackCast 18. Update 2 Echinacea Meta Anal Ysis. The Lancet published a meta anal ysis of echinacea and concluded it was effective. Is it true? Well, what is truth? Listen to the podcast and hear my truth. 8/16/07

QuackCast 19. Iridology. A look at the iridology, a form of fiction mistaken as a diagnostic modality. 9/19/07

QuackCast 20. Influenza myths. The flu can kill you. What YOU can do to prevent it. Tonight on the 10 o’clock news. Plus, the truth behind Brittany’s hair. 10/22/07

QuackCast 21. Acupuncture update. Quackcast 21, my podcast can now drink in Oregon. A review of the medical literature of SCAMS: supplements, complementary and alternative medicine. 11/20/07

QuackCast 22. Boost your immune system And die. A cursory review of the immune system and then a review of some medical literature that suggests boosting it will cause you to die die die die die die die die die die die die die…….. Got carried away. Were all gonna DIE!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry. I panic easy.12/27/07

QuackCast 23. Trust No One. But me. What an article says and what people say it says, and what people say it says it says etc are often not the same thing. I tediously dissect a medical paper and comment of what two commentators say it says. 1/20/08

QuackCast 24. The Yeast Dis Connection 3/2/08

QuackCast 25. Fungi Shui. 5/12/08

QuackCast 26. Alternative Aviation. Recycled material from the Science Based Medicine Blog. 5/26/08

Quackcast 27. Acupuncture and Chiropractic Update. A review of Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine ie SCAMS. This podcasts reviews 2 papers on acupuncture and pain, and one on chiropractic and stroke. 7/1/08

QuackCast 28. Vitamin C and the Common Cold. Because the Peter Principle rules, millions were spent to demonstrate clearly that Vitamin C has minimal effects on the common cold. Someone needs to return his Nobel prize. . 8/31/08

QuackCast 29. Reiki and Therapeutic Touch. Energy Therapies abound in SCAM’s. Here are two. Reiki and Therapeutic Touch. 11/23/08

QuackCast 30. Lets Kill The Children or A Defense of Vaccines Why vaccines, to quote Mr. Pooh, “Are a Good Thing.” 2/22/09

QuackCast 31. Green our SCAM. Why SCAMs are bad for you and the environment. Gaia cries when you take a TCM remedy. 4/09

QuackCast 32. Huffpo. 32 Sentences and 57 taradiddles. 5/15

QuackCast 33. Update on Acupuncture, Chiropractic and Herbal Remedies. 7/5/9

QuackCast 34. Flu Woo for You. 8/19/9

QuackCast 35. Flu vaccine efficacy. Plus 18 taradiddles.

QuackCast 36. Hi Ho Silver. Should you use colloidal silver? Was there WMD’s in Iraq. Same quality data.

QuackCast 37. Acai. Spanish for take the money and run. 11/09

QuackCast 38. Mesotherapy. Will it make your meso morph? 12/09

QuackCast 39. Measles Update. 12/27

QuackCast 40. Literature update. Chiropractic and ginkgo. 01/10

QuackCast 41. YOU, acupuncture and the military. 1/23/10

QuackCast 42. The Tamiflu spin. Atlantis, er, I mean the Atlantic discusses the use of Tamiflu and is as reliable as Plato. 2/20/10

QuackCast 43.  Literature update: Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo. A review of a hodgepodge of publications concerning placebo, homeopathy, magnets, acupuncture and the nature of reality.   Mislabeled as number 42 in the audio. Sorry.  Counting not my strong point. 3/27/10

QuackCast 44. Nine questions, none answers. An ND suggests there are 9 questions that pro-vaccine proponents can’t answer. Ha.  My 12 year old can find the answers.

QuackCast 45. A review of the the alleged side effects of the third greatest invention of all time.  After clean water and the flush toilet.  This is a re-recording of a lecture I gave to the Portland OFR and CFI.  Slides of the talk can be downloaded from here.

QuackCast 46. Mumps. 5/10

QuackCast 47 more or less.  More on Medical Voices. 6/10

QuackCast 48.  Acupuncture and CME. 7/10

QuackCast 49.  Bought and sold. Who should pay for medical education. 7/10

QuackCast 50. The NEJM and Acupuncture.  Crap from the what used to be the best. 8/10

QuackCast 51.  Short Attention Span Quackcast.

QuackCast 52. Good Journals Gone Bad. 

QuackCast 53. Reflexology  

Quackcast 54.  There is no quackcast 54.

Quackcast 55.  Homeopathetic vaccines.

Quackcast 56.  Sky Maul. A meandering look at aspects of acupuncuture by the easily distracted.

Quackcast 57.  Oh So Silly Oh coccinum and whiny babies. 12/26/10.

Quackcast 58.  Cranberry Juice and Bladder infections. 01/26/11.

Quackcast 59. The Vaccine Council of Vaccinations doesn’t want you and yours to get vaccinated.  The data?  Pulled out of their, er, well, lets call it thin air. Yeah. Thin Air.  2/13/11

Quackcast 60. Triskaidekaphobia times two. Reflections on the capacity of the immune system. 3/12/11

Quackcast 61. Deadly Indeed.  An evaluation of the Skeptical Inquirer article Seven Deadly Medical Hypotheses.  3/12/11

Quackcast 62.  The World Has Moved On.  Idle thoughts on medical nonsense in the Huff Po.  4/10/11.

Quackcast 63. Exporting woo to your tired, your poor,Your huddled masses. 4/26/11.

Quackcast 64. Parasites and their so called diagnosis. 5/07/11.

Quackcast 65. Raw Milk. 5/28/11.

Quackcast 66.  Ain’t one.  I can’t count.

Quackcast 67. Ambiguity. 6/17/11.

Quackcast 68. The Dow of Accutane. 6/17/11.

Quackcast 69. Honey. 7/24/11.

Quackcast 70. SOS DD. 7/24/11.

Quackcast 71. CAM. The Beer Goggles of Medicine. 9/13/11.

Quackcast 72. Train Therapy. 9/13/11.

Quackcast 73. The Annals of Internal Medicine Qualifies for Fail Blog. 9/13/11.

Quackcast 74. Gullible George. 9/13/11.

Quackcast 75. Recycle. 10/09/11.

Quackcast 76. The Prostrate Placebo. 10/09/11.

Quackcast 77. Alternative Vaccination Schedule. 11/12/11.

Quackcast 78. Random Flu Thoughts. 11/12/11.

Quackcast 79. Hodgepodge. A bit of medicine, a bit of acupuncture, a bit of staring. 12/10/11.

Quackcast 80. Seal of Approval. Dr. Oz has his favorites. Can’t see why. 12/10/11.

 

 

 

“I still remain optimistic that NCCAM could be of value to researchers interested in science-based investigations of treatment modalities that are not currently accepted as standard medical practice.”
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/nccam-criticism-from-a-not-quite-opponent/#more-18468

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/defending-cam-with-bad-logic-and-bad-data/

CAM proponents tend to use the same bad arguments over and over again. They have no choice (other than deciding not to be CAM proponents) – if a treatment were backed by solid logic and evidence it would not be CAM, it would just be medicine.  As SBM’s fourth year comes to a close I thought I would round up the most common bad arguments that CAM proponents put forward to defend their position. Like creationists, pointing out the errors in their facts and logic will not stop them from continuing to use these arguments. But this lack of imagination on their part makes it somewhat easy to counter their arguments, since the same ones will come up again and again.

The Argument from Antiquity

Our SBM colleagues in Australia have been critical of the incorporation of unscientific methods into academia. In defense of this practice:

Professor Iain Graham from Southern Cross University’s School of Health yesterday defended his university, saying the use of alternative therapies, such as homeopathy, can be traced as far back as ancient Greece.

This is a common claim – that some CAM modalities have been around for centuries, or even thousands of years, and so they must work. I am not sure if professor Graham intended to state that homeopathy can be traced back to ancient Greece, perhaps he just meant that some CAM therapies can, and chose homeopathy as a bad example. For the record, homeopathy was invented by Samuel Hahnemann about 200 years ago.

But I wonder what CAM modalities he had in mind. Chiropractic? About 100 years. Therapeutic touch? A few decades. Acupuncture is a complex question, but what passes for acupuncture today is less than 100 years old. Perhaps he was thinking about blood letting or trepanation.

It is true, however, that some basic concepts, like the notion of a life energy, can trace it roots to ancient Greece, and other ancient cultures. However, such notions are pre-scientific nonsense. Scientists abandoned the notion of life energy over a century ago because there was no evidence that such a force exists (and there still isn’t) and after figuring out all the basic processes of life there was essentially nothing left for the alleged life force to do.

For some reason, however, professor Graham believes that antiquity in science is a virtue – the “argument from antiquity” logical fallacy. The unstated assumption is that if an idea has survived for hundreds or thousands of years it must be legitimate. This is demonstrably false. Galenic medicine (blood letting, purging, etc. based on the notion of the four humours) survived for thousands of years, and yet it was based on complete and utter primitive nonsense. In fact its tendrils still exist – there is still blood letting, cupping (which is just another form of blood letting), and similar practices going on in the world. It was replaced in the West because of the advent of science in medicine – a trend that Graham and other CAM proponents apparently want to reverse.

The Argument from Popularity

Graham also states in the same article:

“Eighty per cent of Australians seek alternative therapies,” Prof Graham said.

“Obviously orthodox medicine is not working for everyone,” he said.

The argument from popularity is almost ubiquitous in CAM apologetics. We are constantly being told that CAM is popular and that its popularity is growing. This argument is used to justify incorporation of CAM into academia, spending research funds on CAM, and licensing CAM practitioners.

As with the argument from antiquity, the facts are often fudged. For example, I highly doubt that the 80% figure quoted for Australia is correct. Most such figures are highly inflated by including all sorts of practices in the CAM category, like exercise, eating organic food, and sometimes prayer is included. US surveys show the percentage of CAM use is around 1/3, but this is mostly things like massage and chiropractic manipulations. Homeopathy is around 3-4%, and acupuncture 6-7%. In fact, only manipulation and massage were in the double digits.

… And there is plenty more to be found at the link in the previous post.

Charles Darwin acknowledged the inadequacy of evolution when he wrote,
To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. (Darwin 1872)
Source:

Huse, Scott. 1996. The Collapse of Evolution. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, p. 73.
Response:

The quote is taken out of context. Darwin answered the seeming problem he introduced. The paragraph continues,
Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)
Darwin continues with three more pages describing a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/defending-cam-with-bad-logic-and-bad-data/

I leave a reader to draw their own conclusions. Hold your stomach before you start to laugh This came from the site on garrys last post.
Just a couple of cut and pastes ..
==============================
CAM proponents tend to use the same bad arguments over and over again. They have no choice (other than deciding not to be CAM proponents) – if a treatment were backed by solid logic and evidence it would not be CAM, it would just be medicine. As SBM’s fourth year comes to a close I thought I would round up the most common bad arguments that CAM proponents put forward to defend their position. Like creationists, pointing out the errors in their facts and logic will not stop them from continuing to use these arguments. But this lack of imagination on their part makes it somewhat easy to counter their arguments, since the same ones will come up again and again.

CAM is more crap .. Alternative medicine is not complementary, it is philosophically the opposite. I do not feel that Alternative Medicine would wish to be associated with such a bunch of people.

What a thorough bunch of unmitigated thugs. How dare you! What have things come to ? .. The disrespect shown to their perceived underlings is a real choking gasp for air ..
================================
It is true, however, that some basic concepts, like the notion of a life energy, can trace it roots to ancient Greece, and other ancient cultures. However, such notions are pre-scientific nonsense. Scientists abandoned the notion of life energy over a century ago because there was no evidence that such a force exists (and there still isn’t) and after figuring out all the basic processes of life there was essentially nothing left for the alleged life force to do.

Good God .. well I never .. go stand in front of a full length mirror and repeat that buffoon,s word aloud .. ROFLMAO

I can look out of my window on a spring day and feel the life force as a positive phenomena. If there is no life force then how are you posting here from there ? and dont give me any more propaganda about natural selection. And if you had a spitting clawing cat by the tail then a life force takes on a new and very real meaning.

For some reason, however, professor Graham believes that antiquity in science is a virtue – the “argument from antiquity” logical fallacy. The unstated assumption is that if an idea has survived for hundreds or thousands of years it must be legitimate. This is demonstrably false. Galenic medicine (blood letting, purging, etc. based on the notion of the four humours) survived for thousands of years, and yet it was based on complete and utter primitive nonsense. In fact its tendrils still exist – there is still blood letting, cupping (which is just another form of blood letting), and similar practices going on in the world. It was replaced in the West because of the advent of science in medicine – a trend that Graham and other CAM proponents apparently want to reverse.

The Argument from Popularity

Graham also states in the same article:

“Eighty per cent of Australians seek alternative therapies,” Prof Graham said.

“Obviously orthodox medicine is not working for everyone,” he said.

The argument from popularity is almost ubiquitous in CAM apologetics. We are constantly being told that CAM is popular and that its popularity is growing. This argument is used to justify incorporation of CAM into academia, spending research funds on CAM, and licensing CAM practitioners.

As with the argument from antiquity, the facts are often fudged. For example, I highly doubt that the 80% figure quoted for Australia is correct. Most such figures are highly inflated by including all sorts of practices in the CAM category, like exercise, eating organic food, and sometimes prayer is included. US surveys show the percentage of CAM use is around 1/3, but this is mostly things like massage and chiropractic manipulations. Homeopathy is around 3-4%, and acupuncture 6-7%. In fact, only manipulation and massage were in the double digits.

So you haven’t followed the link. Clot.

Ivor – great links again, thanks – much to read. Interesting that whilst some posting here will actually discuss and debate science without personal outbursts(and I give them credit for that, even if I do not always agree with their conclusions), certain repeat naysayers seem to have great difficulty refuting you (or anyone else here) on any actual science…and hence resort to personal attacks and gibberish…hardly scientific (but perhaps they don’t have any strong understanding or grounding in science or research methodology). All in all, it seems that some are willing to turn themselves inside out and back again to promote vaccines, and no matter what the data says…good luck to them, but I’ll continue to do my own research!

merry X-mas from a vaccine free household, and thanks again for the info posted

Top of the Season to you and yours Bilbo, and thank you for the kind words.

There will come a day when science collapses and will have to be rebuilt. The gross contradictions between some disciplines will need to be eradicated but even then in the eyes of the general public it will remain sullied.

I think many are sick and tired of science and its pronouncements, and having it delivered in such a fashion that one thinks it has come from the right hand of God.

http://www.naturalnews.com/034501_conspiracy_theories_facts_2011.html

Unforunately, many confuse the actual practise of science (including, unfortunately, journal publications and peer review) with the philosophy of science. The practice of science is often extremely subjective (and driven by monetary and personal motivations instead of objectivity and pursuit of knowledge), whilst the philosophy of science and good research methodology aims for objectivity (even if it can never be reached 100%).

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Scientific-benefits-prayer-works/2011/12/20/id/421663

Millions of Americans pray — and believe that prayer works.

In fact, one recent poll found that 84% of U.S. adults claim they’d prayed in the past week.

But many people believe that prayer has no scientific validity, and is only wishful or magical thinking.

The Newsmax Health team wanted to know the truth about prayer. Can modern science actually explain prayer? How does praying affect the brain? And what benefits, if any, does prayer really offer people … physically, mentally, or emotionally?

To this end, they went out to the scientific and medical community to learn the potential benefits of prayer. The results were so startling that they created a free video presentation on the scientific benefits of prayer to share exactly what they discovered.

Video: Prayer Changes Your Brain in 4 Astonishing Ways

scientific_benefits_of_prayer

This video reveals how prayer actually changes four distinct areas of the human brain: the frontal lobe, the anterior cingulate, the parietal lobe, and the limbic system.

It also details how a specific amount of prayer time per day can help prevent memory loss, mental decline, and even dementia or Alzheimer’s.

Plus, it covers 47 scientifically proven benefits of prayer, including pain relief, reduced risk of death from heart attack or stroke, lessened anxiety or depression, improved immune function, and more.

And last but not least, it warns of a specific prayer pitfall that can actually cause illness if care is not taken.

According to Travis Davis, Newsmax Health Publisher, this video does not promote any specific religion or spiritual practice, but it does shed light on a practice that 3 out of 4 Americans engage in on a regular basis — a practice basically ignored by the mainstream media.
As Davis notes, “Most people are not aware of the emerging field of neurotheology, the scientific study of the relationship between the brain and spiritual phenomena.

We wanted to help introduce this groundbreaking scientific work to the public.”

Editor’s Note: For a limited time, Newsmax Health is making this video on the scientific basis of prayer available at no charge. Go here to view it now.

Read more on Newsmax.com: The Scientific Benfits of Prayer, How Prayer Works
Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama’s Re-Election? Vote Here Now!

What is to be done with the criminals responsible for the current situation ?. The criminals have smashed the species barrier with their meddling and their false conclusions drawn from their findings.

The farmed animal vaccination is 100% which gives lie to the nonsense about herd immunity. As a a specie we have been ravaged, our children are born crippled with life long disease.
================================

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111223/human-infection-with-h3n2-origin-reported-111223/20111223/?hub=EdmontonHome

Updated: Fri Dec. 23 2011 17:16:22

The Canadian Press

U.S. public health officials have found another case of human infection with a swine-origin H3N2 virus, this time in a child from West Virginia. And they also reported finding a human infection with a new swine influenza virus never before seen in humans, in a person in Wisconsin who had contact with pigs.

The Wisconsin case seems to be a one-off infection, with no signs of further spread. But the investigation into West Virginia case suggests the child was infected by another person, not a pig and that some amount of human-to-human spread of the virus took place in the unnamed community where the child lives, according to details released Friday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.

The H3N2 case is the 12th — in five states — reported in the U.S. since this new virus was first spotted in July. And the CDC acknowledges there are probably more cases that haven’t been picked up by the country’s flu surveillance systems.

“We don’t think these are all” the cases, said Dr. Joe Bresee, head of the influenza epidemiology team in the CDC’s Influenza division.

To date no other country has reported seeing human infections with this virus, which has also been isolated from pigs in the U.S.

Details of the investigations into the West Virginia case — the second in that state — and one spotted in the fall in Indiana were released late Friday. The Indiana case was in a man who worked with pigs. A separate release revealed details of the Wisconsin case, which involved a new H1N1 virus with genes from avian, swine and human flu viruses.

The case accounts were contained in a report that revealed that international influenza science partners have agreed to a new name for these viruses, one that drops the constant reference to the viruses’ swine origin.

This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecular.org/subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml are included.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, December 28, 2011
No Deaths from Vitamins
America’s Largest Database Confirms Supplement Safety

(OMNS, Dec 28, 2011) There was not even one death caused by a vitamin supplement in 2010, according to the most recent information collected by the U.S. National Poison Data System.

The new 203-page annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers, published online at http://www.aapcc.org/dnn/Portals/0/2010%20NPDS%20Annual%20Report.pdf, shows zero deaths from multiple vitamins; zero deaths from any of the B vitamins; zero deaths from vitamins A, C, D, or E; and zero deaths from any other vitamin.

Additionally, there were no deaths whatsoever from any amino acid or dietary mineral supplement.

Three people died from non-supplement mineral poisoning: two from medical use of sodium and one from non-supplemental iron. On page 131, the AAPCC report specifically indicates that the iron fatality was not from a nutritional supplement.

Fifty-seven poison centers provide coast-to-coast data for the National Poison Data System, “one of the few real-time national surveillance systems in existence, providing a model public health surveillance system for all types of exposures, public health event identification, resilience response and situational awareness tracking.”

Well over half of the U.S. population takes daily nutritional supplements. Even if each of those people took only one single tablet daily, that makes 165,000,000 individual doses per day, for a total of over 60 billion doses annually. Since many persons take far more than just one single vitamin or mineral tablet, actual consumption is considerably higher, and the safety of nutritional supplements is all the more remarkable.

Over 60 billion doses of vitamin and mineral supplements per year in the USA, and not a single fatality. Not one.

If vitamin and mineral supplements are allegedly so “dangerous,” as the FDA and news media so often claim, then where are the bodies?

Reference:

Bronstein AC, Spyker DA, Cantilena LR Jr, Green JL, Rumack BH, Dart RC. 2010 Annual Report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers’ National Poison Data System (NPDS): 28th Annual Report. The full text article is available for free download at http://www.aapcc.org/dnn/Portals/0/2010%20NPDS%20Annual%20Report.pdf

The data mentioned above are found in Table 22B. Mineral data on page 131; vitamin data on pages 137-139 .

Nutritional Medicine is Orthomolecular Medicine

Orthomolecular medicine uses safe, effective nutritional therapy to fight illness. For more information: http://www.orthomolecular.org

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Best of AofA Scientists and Drug Companies Scheme to Avoid FDA Scrutiny and Exploit US Vaccine Programme Immunity Against the Public Interest

MoneySyringe Managing Editor’s Note: We ran this post last May. Seemed relevant today.

By John Stone

Just eight days after the Supreme Court of the United States ruling granting vaccine manufacturers virtual immunity over prosecution ( Bruesewitz v. Wyeth) , scientists and company representatives met at a congress in Baltimore to “Understand the Changes in the National Vaccine Plan to Maximize Government Sponsored Funding and Avoid FDA Scrutiny”. The “workshop” which took place on 2 March 2011 was the first event in a Vaccine Business Congress held under the auspices of the Institute for International Research USA . Amongst the many participants at the congress were representatives of Merck, GlaxoSmithKline, Sanofi Pasteur, Roche, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Wellcome Trust, and the National Cancer Institute (NIH) (IIRUSA Welcome, IIRUSA Agenda).

Despite frequent bleating from industry apologists that vaccine manufacturers do not make money the pre publicity for the event showed the industry in rampant mood. The on-line brochure states:

“VACCINES are the continuing success story, earning over $27 billion in 2009 alone, despite difficult economic times for the pharmaceutical industry. By 2012, vaccines are expected to bring in more than $35 billion in revenue.”

The brochure demonstrates the utter negligence of the US Congress, administration and courts in leaving its citizenry subjected and exposed to an industry, forced to inject its products by mandate into their children, forced to pay for them through taxation and finally to do so without any sanction against manufacturers should damage occur. Is it any surprise then that instead of regarding the manufacture of safe and effective products as a solemn ethical duty, they just turn round and brazenly discuss how to milk the contemptible system to the uttermost? Please send this article to your Congressmen and women, and ask them what they intend to do about it.

With thanks to Hilary Butler and others.

John Stone is UK Editor for Age of Autism.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/12/best-of-aofa-scientists-and-drug-companies-scheme-to-avoid-fda-scrutiny-and-exploit-us-vaccine-progr.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ageofautism+%28AGE+OF+AUTISM%29

http://www.naturalnews.com/034525_vaccines_news_stories.html

Sorry Ivor but prayer doesn’t work.

http://www.floridafreethinkers.com/785/scientific-conclusion-prayer-doesnt-work-part-1/

Jon L. Weininger says:

November 6, 2009 at 7:48 am (UTC -5 )

Reply

Two things:
1) I’m not sure you understand what Christian prayer is. In your hopes of speaking objectively on the topic, surely you would admit that you couldn’t do that if you fundamentally misunderstood prayer. Right?
2) You raise a number of thoughtful, fascinating points. However, you seem to have a double standard. In Byrd’s experiment he simply couldn’t be objective because of his religious views; yet, you and other scientists who don’t share his views can objectively critique him. It’s important to see this argumentation method for what it is: an unfair standard which you hold Byrd to but excuse yourself from.

A very reasonable question to ponder is this: if the supernatural is bogus, surely science will be eventually able to either disprove it or expose its most fundamental contradictions. I happily concede the possibility of this. However, if the supernatural is true, then science that assumed the supernatural to be false would be working in a framework of flawed assumptions–using a kind of blindness no reasonable person would respect. Would you happily concede the possibility of that?
===========================
The above was a reply to the freethinkers of Floridas opinion. Checkmate garry!

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/12/has-drug-driven-medicine-become-form-of.html

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/research-pineapple-enzyme-kills-cancer-without-killing-you

Has Drug-Driven Medicine Become A Form of Human Sacrifice?
Post date:
Thursday, December 29, 2011 – 11:09

by Sayer Ji

“Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution the time will
come when medicine will organize itself into an undercover
dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to doctors and deny
equal privileges to others will constitute the Bastille of medical
science. All such laws are un-American and despotic.”

~ Attributed to Dr. Benjamin Rush,
Signer of the Declaration of Independence

Benjamin Rush accurately foretold a grave possibility facing Americans today, namely, that the art and science of healing be restricted to a select class of allopathic physicians, who have the sole legal right to recommend and administer medicines, and whose pharmacopeia excludes – as a matter of principle – all the healing foods, vitamins and herbs which have been used safely and effectively for countless millenia in the prevention and treatment of disease.

We have entered an era where medicine no longer bears any resemblance to the art and science of healing. The doctor no longer facilitates the body’s innate self-healing capabilities with time, care, good nutrition and special help from our plant allies. To the contrary, medicine has transmogrified into a business enterprise founded on the inherently nihilistic principles of pure, unbridled capitalism, with an estimated 786,000 Americans dying annually from iatrogenic or medically-caused deaths.*

The article continues here …
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/has-drug-driven-medicine-become-form-human-sacrifice

Ivvor, the article answered your reasonable question in the second paragraph, reproduced below.
“One of the major ways that scientists provide proof of theories is by doing well designed studies, of which the “gold standard” is the large, randomized, prospective, controlled, double blind type. If such a study could be influenced by a personal god who responded to prayers to change the results, science would be in shambles. There would be no way to ever do a valid experiment since investigators couldn’t be sure that someone, somewhere, hadn’t uttered a specific or generic prayer that would affect the study. In short, science by its very nature, rejects any influence of prayer on the physical world.”

This is also interesting….
“By the way, this methodological incompatibility is not due to any dogmatic faith in a  naturalistic/atheistic worldview. Naturalism is an additional conclusion from science, not a premise of science. Science rejects things like “the soul” because that hypothesis enjoys no verifiable evidence and contradicts well-established knowledge about things like brains. While naturalism does assert that science’s method and knowledge is superior, this claim is a philosophical claim requiring separate defenses, not a scientific principle or hypothesis. A brief account of philosophical naturalism is offered here . Science simply is scientific method and its conclusions. Complaining that science dogmatically excludes religious methods is like complaining that sculpting excludes photography techniques. Put another way, science needs religion like art needs astrology. On the other hand, many religions have continually incorporated the best of science, after long delay. What would medieval theology have been without Aristotle and Ptolemy? We presently hear a few theologians spotting signs of divinity in quantum mechanics and multiverses.

Science is incompatible with religion’s distinctive method of knowing. Science is also incompatible with many of religion’s distinctive conclusions. Leaving goings-on in some supernatural realm aside, many religions claim to have knowledge of entities and events showing up in our world which ought to occasionally be experimentally confirmable by scientific method. Consider religious claims about divine creation of humans, miracles, faith healing, angelic visitations, demonic forces, etc. When scientifically investigated, science concludes that these claims lack merit, about as impressive as horoscopes, Big Foot, and ESP. Sophisticated theology quickly covers for religion by ad-hoc hypothesizing how science must be blind to these matters (hence we get transubstantiation, ectoplasm, God’s gene-tweaking, etc.) Very liberal religion wisely refrains from claims about matters that ought to be scientifically detectable and confirmable (that’s the privilege of broad accommodation). But when a religion continues to make anti-scientific claims, do not be surprised when science declares its incompatibility. 

Can Big Brother religion creatively accommodate science, and offer “generous” compromises with science? Obviously. But science cannot return the favor, sorry, if science must compromise its method or betray its conclusions. Any genuinely pro-science organization, government or not, can clearly drawn the line here. If it can’t, then it has no business claiming to defend science. Has the younger brother grown up? Is it time for the appeasement to stop?”

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/science_and_religion_are_incompatible_in_two_major_ways/

As for your nonsense about doctors! The GPs I know are constantly advising their patients to eat properly and exercise. They are more than happy to advise vitamin supplements for patients suffering from deficiencies . Many of the efficacious medicines they prescribe are based on compounds first found in plants. None of them however has any use for the foolishness called homeopathy.

Garry,
check out the video in my original post on prayer and if you have the time try Professor Emoto,s experiments.

Here is another one on scientific medicine ..
====================================

The Fix / By Kevin Gray

The 10 Most Dangerous Meds Driving America’s Pill Crisis
More Americans now die from prescription pills than car accidents. The nation’s response to the trend will define an era, but corporate influence threatens reform.
December 26, 2011 |

For the first time in nearly a century, automobile accidents are no longer the nation’s leading cause of accidental deaths, according to a major report released Tuesday by the National Center for Health Statistics. The new number one killer is drugs—not smack, crystal meth or any other stepped-on menace sold in urban alleyways or trailer parks, but bright, shiny pills prescribed by doctors, approved by the government, manufactured by pharmaceutical companies and sold to the consumer as “medicine.” Yet of the billions of legit pills Americans pop every year for medical conditions serious and otherwise, the vast majority of lives are claimed by only a select few classes—painkillers, sedatives and stimulants—that all share a common characteristic: they promote abuse, dependence and addiction.

“This is just the tip of the iceberg of the prescription drug abuse problem,” says Dr. Margaret Warner, the federal report’s lead author. “The take-home here is, this should be a wake-up call.” Some 41,000 Americans died from what the report refers to as “poisonings” in 2008, compared with 38,000 traffic deaths. That tally marks a 90 percent increase in poisonings and a 15 percent decrease in car accidents since 1999.

Nearly nine out of ten of those poisonings were caused by prescription drug overdoses, with the chief culprit being opiate-based pain relievers such as Vicodin (hydrocodone), OxyContin and Percocet (oxycodone), codeine, morphine—and let’s not forget Actiq (fentanyl), the infamous berry-flavored lollipop that is 100 times stronger than morphine and—like most opiate analgesics—so overprescribed that only about 10% of its sales come from its original indication to treat cancer pain.

The article continues here ..
http://www.alternet.org/story/153576/The_10_Most_Dangerous_Meds_Driving_America%27s_Pill_Crisis/

To be an atheist you do not have to believe that there is no god.
You just have to lack belief in a god.

For example, I do not believe there is life on Mars.
But I do not believe that there is no life on Mars. If the latest rover finds life on Mars, then I will have reason to believe.

You may think that you have sufficient evidence to support your belief in god. If you do, then you have no need for faith.
My standards of proof may be different to yours … I have found no evidence for the existence of any gods, from Thor to Jehovah, or indeed any spiritual entities. But my standards are probably higher than yours given your gullibility regarding homeopathy.

Gary .. its a bit early to be nipping at the cooking sherry my lad.

Just take a long look at the gibberish that you have just posted.

What a twerp! ROFLMAO

Ivvor, how about you explain what you think atheism is instead of just making personal insults.

Science based medicine certainly has an effect. Unlike homeopathy wich has no effect.
The only danger from taking homeopathic remedies is that you may be delaying getting effective medical help from science based medicine.
Steve Jobs is a famous recent example but there are many more at http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

Garry .. Happy New Year.

Please tell me why Homeopathy does not work and I will consider what you have to say.

A major stumbling block for you is .. I have tried it and studied it, and you have not.

So explain what it is that upsets you so about Homeopathy.

New Year Gift for Garry.

ARE MOST DISEASES CAUSED BY THE MEDICAL SYSTEM?

By Walter Last

I do not want to pretend that this is an impartial investigation. Instead I am now fully convinced that most diseases are indeed caused by the medical system, and in the following I want to state my reasons for this conclusion.

Increasingly over the years my health beliefs have been turned around. I started out by working as a biochemist and toxicologist in university medical departments fully believing that all these chronic and incurable diseases are indeed incurable and generally of unknown origin, but that pharmaceutical drugs made ​​life easier for patients and often were even curative. My re-education started after immigrating to New Zealand and learning about natural healing and living; this made ​​me realize that disease is mainly caused by unnatural living conditions and can be overcome by natural methods of living and healing.

While I learned about the harmful nature of drug treatment, I was still thinking of it as being ineffective and causing side-effects rather than as a main cause of our diseases. Diseases caused by medical treatment are called iatrogenic diseases. The total number of iatrogenic deaths in the USA for 2001 is estimated to be 783,936. These were due to fatal drug reactions, medical error and unnecessary medical and surgical procedures. With this, the medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States . In comparison the 2001 heart disease death rate was 699,697 and the annual cancer death rate 553,251 (1).

This is also the reason why it is so beneficial for patients when doctors go on strike. Statistics show that whenever there was a strike by doctors, the death rate in the affected population fell dramatically. In 1976 the death rate fell by 35 per cent in Bogotá , Colombia . In Los Angeles County , California , It fell by 18 per cent during a strike in the same year, while in Israel it fell by 50 per cent during a strike in 1973. Only once before was there a similar drop in the death rate in Israel and that was during another doctors’ strike 20 years earlier. After each strike the death rate jumped again to its normal level (2).

However these figures of iatrogenic deaths do not take into account iatrogenic diseases from the long-term harm done by medical treatments where patients survive but with a chronic disease. My real awakening to this problem started when I became aware of the story of Orion Truss who discovered the Candidiasis-causing potential of antibiotics.

Dr Orian Truss

In 1953 Dr Orian Truss discovered the devastating effects of antibiotics in an Alabama (USA) hospital (3). During a ward round Truss was intrigued by a gaunt, apparently elderly man who was obviously dying. However, he was only in his forties and in hospital for four months. No specialist had been able to make a diagnosis. Out of curiosity Truss asked the patient when be was last completely well.

The man answered that he was well until six months before when he had cut his finger. He had received antibiotics for this. Shortly afterwards he developed diarrhoea and his health deteriorated. Truss had seen before how antibiotics cause diarrhoea. It was known that Candida was opportunistic and thrived in debilitated patients, but now Truss wondered if it might not be the other way round, that Candida actually caused the debilitated condition.

He had read that potassium iodide solution could be used to treat Candida infestation of the blood. So he put the patient on six to eight drops of Lugol’s solution four times a day for three weeks and soon the patient was again completely well.

Soon afterwards he had a female patient with a stuffy nose, a throbbing headache, vaginitis and severe depression. To his amazement all her problems immediately cleared with Candida treatment. Some time later he saw a female patient who had been schizophrenic for six years with hundreds of electroshock treatments and massive drug dosages. He started treating the woman for sinus allergies with a Candida remedy. Soon she had recovered mentally and physically, and remained well.

From then on he treated his patients against Candida at the slightest indication of its presence. Many of his patients made ​​remarkable recoveries from most unusual conditions, including menstrual problems, hyperactivity, learning disabilities, autism, schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis and auto-immune diseases such as Crohn’s disease and lupus erythematosus.

Every experienced naturopath can relate similar success stories. Also some alternative medical practitioners have realized the curative potential of anti-Candida therapy, as for instance Dr William Crook who wrote several books about the successful treatment of allergies and hyperactive children (4).

The Antibiotic Syndrome

Candidiasis is not the only side-effect of antibiotic treatment, and antibiotics are not the only drugs that cause such problems. Drugs used in chemotherapy, anti-inflammatory steroidal drugs and other long-term drug therapies tend to kill or suppress the natural intestinal bacteria, and yeast, parasites and harmful bacteria start taking over. This is then called dysbiosis. Most patients receive such drugs in hospitals and can be expected to develop systemic Candida overgrowth as a result.

Our natural intestinal flora, mainly based on lactobacteria, not only helps to digest and absorb food, it also protects us against ingested harmful bacteria that otherwise may cause food poisoning. With a healthy intestinal flora millions of salmonella bacteria may be needed to cause an infection but with dysbiosis only tens of salmonella would be required.

With chronic dysbiosis the intestinal wall becomes inflamed, causing ulcers, appendicitis, malabsorption and Crohn’s disease, and as the intestinal membrane erodes we develop multiple food allergies, arthritis and autoimmune diseases. In addition to Candida also other pathogens and parasites now invade the bloodstream and various organs. With live cell analysis natural therapists can see and show their patients the fungi in their blood. This invasion greatly weakens the immune system so that people now become susceptible to frequent or chronic infections. Commonly this is then treated with more antibiotics, which continues to intensify the symptoms.

Actually, the problem is not with the antibiotics. You can take a course if you feel it is needed, provided that you take a fungicide, such as fresh garlic, at the same time, and have some probiotics after the antibiotic and before you ingest any carbohydrates. This will prevent most diseases that are caused by the careless medical method of using antibiotics. For more details see Candida and the Antibiotic Syndrome .

Autoimmune Diseases and Asthma

Autoimmune diseases, including psoriasis, lupus erythematosus and pancreatitis, have been linked to dysbiosis. When remedies are given that bind bacterial endotoxins, these conditions usually improve. In addition autoimmune diseases have been shown to be linked to mycoplasmas or nanobacteria which start to develop from diseased red blood cells in the presence of toxic chemicals and systemic Candida. The weaker our immune system becomes, the more these mycoplasms start to develop into bacterial and finally fungal forms. They have been found in all autoimmune diseases, cancers and AIDS (5).

Antibiotics are also a major contributing cause of asthma. C hildren who received broad-spectrum antibiotics were about nine times more likely to suffer from asthma (6). A recent research paper confirmed dysbiosis as a main cause of asthma (7)

In the 1980′s New Zealand had the highest rate of asthma deaths in the world. This was drastically reduced when in 1991 the inhaler drug Fenoterol was banned as it caused a 13 times higher risk of dying (8). This reduction in the asthma death rate was generally hailed as a great triumph for medical science. Other studies revealed that asthmatics using more than one bronchodilator inhaler a month had a fifty-fold increased risk of suffering a fatal asthma attack.

In addition to asthma, I also see the combination of pasteurized cow’s milk with antibiotic-induced dysbiosis in babies and infants as the main cause of their frequent infections, glue ear and greatly contributing to cot or crib death. Because health authorities insist on pasteurizing milk, and doctors prescribe antibiotics without the most basic precautions, I regard asthma and most childhood infections as predominantly iatrogenic diseases.

In the ‘good old days’ people ingested a lot of lactic acid fermented foods and raw milk products that replenished our ‘good’ bacteria, and because antibiotics had not been invented, dysbiosis and therefore chronic diseases were rare. Instead people mainly died from acute infections due to unhygienic living conditions, and in the slums also from malnutrition.

Staphylococcus aureus or golden staph causes serious infections in hospital patients. It has been found that not only golden staph but also other infections are greatly potentized when they occur combined with Candida overgrowth. As Candida overgrowth is a natural outcome of the standard hospital treatment, it is easy to see why golden staph is so deadly in hospitals.

A similar picture emerges with AIDS. People do not die from the AIDS virus but from Candida or fungal-potentized bacterial and mycoplasma infections. The end stage of AIDS is the same as the end stage of cancer. It is called cachexia, a wasting condition mainly caused by fungal overgrowth. Lugol’s iodine solution and other systemic fungicides should do wonders for it. Presently also MMS, a 28% solution of sodium chlorite, IS gaining acceptance as an Effective antimicrobial remedy (see http://miraclemineral.org ).

All of this shows that antibiotic-induced dysbiosis and Candida are not isolated and relatively harmless problems as the medical profession prefers to believe, but rather the underlying cause of most of our modern diseases.

Cancer and Leukemia

One hundred years ago the rate of cancer was very low. I have no doubt that the phenomenal increase in the use of agricultural and industrial chemicals as well as pharmaceutical drugs has greatly accelerated the increase in the rate of cancer, and there is also a link to the consumption of sugar. Even stronger is the link to dysbiosis and Candida.

Chemotherapy commonly leads to systemic Candida infections, which greatly limit the success rate of the treatment. Long-term follow-up studies show that children develop 18 times more secondary malignant tumors later in life, girls face a 75 times higher risk of breast cancer by the time they are 40 (9), while the risk of developing leukemia after chemotherapy for ovarian cancer increased 21-fold. Also other tumors commonly develop after treating malignancies with chemotherapy (10). A main problem appears to be the development of deep or systemic Candida infections shortly after starting chemotherapy (11).

Only recently have oncologists started to acknowledge what patients called “chemo-brain”, a distressing loss of memory and other cognitive functions. Psychiatrists have now found that the conventional treatment of cancer causes serious depression in 15 to 25 percent of patients. “The depression itself can often be worse than the disease” they say (12). Brain fog and depression are common with systemic Candida.

All of this shows that chemotherapy tends to cause leukemia and cancer many years later mainly as a result of dysbiosis and systemic Candida. The reason for the widespread use of chemotherapy despite its lack of effectiveness, severe side effects, and long-term cancer promotion can be seen in the fact that private-practice oncologists (in the US) typically derive two-thirds of their income from selling chemotherapy to patients (13).

This chemotherapy connection makes it very likely that dysbiosis and systemic Candida can also cause cancer and leukemia when they are caused as a result of antibiotic treatment. The rate of cancer really accelerated only after the use of antibiotics became widespread.

There is also more direct evidence that Candida and other fungi are a cause of leukemia. Meinolf Karthaus, MD, reported several children with leukemia going into remission upon receiving antifungal remedies for their ‘secondary’ fungal infections (14). In his lifetime work Milton White, MD, was able to find fungal spores in every sample of cancer tissue he studied (15).

Fungal infections have been diagnosed and treated as leukemia, and leukemia has disappeared on grain-free diets, presumably because of the high content of mycotoxins in grains (16).

The Italian oncologist Dr. Tullio Simincini claims a success rate of up to 90% by treating cancer as a fungus. He infuses tumors with sodium bicarbonate solution and recommends taking bicarbonate in water to get rid of gastro-intestinal tumors (17).

Recently I received a personal communication that a large stomach tumor had unexpectantly shrunk after swallowing some mouthwash for a few weeks for a different problem. The main ingredient of this mouthwash was benzoic acid, a strong fungicide that inhibits the metabolism of fungal cells. Cancer cells have the same fungal-type metabolism which thrives on high levels of glucose and insulin, and they may therefore be regarded as a kind of fungal cells.

While the work of the German Dr Ryke Geerd Hamer (18) shows that emotional shock is a major trigger for the development of cancer, a weak immune system as caused by intestinal dysbiosis, systemic Candidiasis, toxic chemicals, and root canal treatments appears to be an essential co-factor. After all, a century ago people must have had a similar number of emotional shocks as at present, but cancer was very rare. Conversely, there are lots of people with dysbiosis and root canals that do not have cancer, but add emotional shock, and voilà!

Root Canals

Root-canal filled teeth are a variation of the theme of intestinal dysbiosis. They, too, appear to be a major contributing factor in many health problems, not only cancer but also heart disease, arthritis, kidney disease and auto-immune diseases. This is due to microbes that multiply in the multitude of tiny canals or tubules in the dentine and gradually leach out into the lymph system. Even normally harmless microbes become very dangerous and more virulent and toxic under the anaerobic conditions in dead teeth.

Dr Weston Price (19), a former Director of Research for the American Dental Association, observed that the removal of root-filled teeth from patients with kidney or heart disease would in most cases lead to an improvement. When he then inserted a removed root-filled tooth under the skin of a rabbit it would die within two days. When he implanted normal teeth there was no adverse health effect. In some experiments he implanted the same fragments of root-filled teeth in succession under the skins of up to 100 rabbits and they all died within two weeks of the same disease that the human donor had!

Dr Price conducted about 5,000 experiments over 25 years. He did not find a reliable method to disinfect dead teeth and make them safe. His research has been suppressed, and if at all mentioned by our dental associations then they are described as “dated” because this research was conducted and published over 70 years ago but it has never been repeated or otherwise investigated, or root canals shown to be safe.

The main argument for their supposed safety is that millions of people have them and are still alive many years later. The question of root canals causing widespread degenerative diseases is not discussed or researched. Price found that about 30% of individuals have such a strong immune system that they do not develop problems from root canals until they become old but the remaining 70% develop problems much sooner.

I regard root canals, even more so then intestinal dysbiosis, as a major cause of autoimmune diseases. In 1993 George E. Meinig, DDS, a former US root canal specialist, re-published the dental research of Dr Price in a popular version, and included his own experiences (20).

Iatrogenic Heart Attacks

One hundred years ago heart attacks were almost unknown despite diets generally being high in saturated fats. The ascent of heart attacks began with the pasteurization of milk and the use of chlorine to kill bacteria in public water supplies. This began around 1900 and was generally accepted in Western countries in the l920′s. From 1920 onwards the explosive increase in the incidence of cardiovascular disease and fatal heart attacks began, but only in countries that chlorinated their water supplies. These diseases remained unknown, for instance, in Africa, China, Japan, and other parts of ASIA. However, when Japanese citizens immigrated to Hawaii where water was chlorinated, they suffered the same rate of heart attacks as the Americans, and the black population in the US have the average US rate of heart attacks but not their brothers in Africa. Inhabitants of the non-chlorinated Roseto in Pennsylvania remained free of heart attacks unless they moved to a chlorinated area (21).

Some of the chlorine reacts with organic impurities in water to form organochlorins (DDT is an Organo-chlorine) while the rest remains as residual free chlorine in the water. It may then react either with food chemicals or with parts of our digestive tract. In 1967 a Dr J. Price in the US performed a decisive experiment. With one group of 50 three-month-old chickens (cockerels) he added one third of a teaspoon of chlorine bleach to about one litre of water whilst another group of 50 chickens served as controls. Seven months later over 95 per cent of the chlorinated group had advanced atherosclerosis, yet none of the control group showed any such evidence.

In the following years Dr Price repeated his experiment many times, always with the same results, and more recently even researchers funded by the US Environmental Protection Agency have confirmed atherosclerotic type changes in other animals, including monkeys, when exposed to chlorinated water (22) .

Drugs and Chemicals

Basically all drugs are more or less toxic, the more so, the more ‘powerful’ they are. Natural remedies cannot be patented, therefore in order to maximize profits the pharmaceutical industry routinely makes and sells synthetic versions of effective natural remedies. Synthetic substances are usually more difficult to detoxify than natural remedies and tend to create more problems the longer they are taken. Often they become highly addictive and after some time may cause the symptoms that they originally alleviated. This, however, is rarely acknowledged by drug companies or medical practitioners, instead when a problem arises simply alternative or additional drugs are prescribed.

A main problem is that drugs are tested individually for relatively short periods, but are then prescribed as drug cocktails for very long periods. Drugs have not been tested under these conditions, and therefore all drug use, except as individual drugs for short periods, is unscientific and unsafe. As a result of this, there are countless dangerous and fatal drug interactions and side-effects as reported in numerous books, articles and statistics.

It is similar with the thousands of synthetic chemicals and heavy metals that are allowed by health authorities to contaminate our living space. These are even less tested than drugs but also react with each other and with drugs in a brew that is impossible to disentangle.

I want to mention just one instance of such a combination. The herbicide paraquat and the fungicide maneb are widely used in farming and may remain present as crop residues. Each on its own did not cause a problem but if rats and mice were exposed to both together, even at very low rates, they developed symptoms of Parkinson’s disease. The leader of the research team said: “No one has looked at the effects of studying together some of these compounds that, taken by themselves, have little effect. This has enormous implications,” and “it’s a huge problem to start thinking about a nearly infinite array of mixtures of chemicals, instead of the risk that a single chemical might pose “(23).

We have similar problems with fluoride and chlorine as well as mercury, aluminium, nickel and other heavy and toxic metals being deliberately put into vaccines and used in dentistry. For a detailed documentation of the problems associated with heavy metals and endocrine disrupting chemicals see Bernard Windham (24).

Sunlight

Health authorities and medical associations have campaigned strongly to avoid sun exposure of the skin. Presumably this causes skin cancer, including melanoma that can kill. However, the vast majority is normal skin cancer that almost never kills, and there is widespread doubt that melanomas are really caused by normal sun exposure, although there seems to be a link with sunburn. Generally outdoor workers with the most sun exposure had the lowest rates of skin cancer and melanoma, while melanomas often show up in office workers. Melanoma often occurs on areas of the skin that had not been exposed to sunlight. Other studies show a strong link between long-term exposure to fluorescent lighting and melanoma (25). With the present campaign to replace all incandescent light bulbs with fluorescent ones, I expect a melanoma epidemic in ten to twenty years (26).

Now more and more research papers show that a vast number of diseases, and especially cancer, could be avoided by greatly increasing our levels of vitamin D with suitable foods, supplements, and frequent or daily short sun exposure of the skin. Sunlight is our main source of vitamin D. Research shows that there is a strong negative correlation between available sunlight and breast cancer death rates – living in a sunny area is associated with lower cancer rates. Even skin cancer is inhibited by regular low-level sun exposure; only sunburn is a strong skin cancer promoter. It has now been calculated that with these measures worldwide about 600,000 cases of colon and breast cancer could be prevented (27).

Furthermore, the researchers pointed out that by increasing levels of vitamin D3 by regular sun exposure and other measures we could prevent diseases that claim nearly 1 million lives throughout the world each year (28, 29).

The irony of all this is that the present skin cancer epidemic has, in my opinion, been manufactured by our health authorities and medical experts. There are three conditions that make us susceptible to develop skin cancers with high sun exposure. These are overacidity, a high ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids, and a lack of antioxidants. The most common cause of overacidity is Candida overgrowth, especially in combination with the officially recommended diet high in cereals. Our omega-6 to omega-3 ratio was always somewhat too high but it went off the chart when our health authorities recommended replacing saturated fats with seed oils high in omega-6 fatty acids. This increased inflammatory conditions of all kinds, including tumors and skin cancers. To make matters worse, health authorities also discourage and legally minimize the use of antioxidant nutrients.

With these measures health authorities created the conditions for an epidemic of skin cancers. Then they tried to prevent skin cancers by recommending complete avoidance of sun exposure, which in turn caused large-scale vitamin D deficiency with an estimated loss of 1 million lives each year. I sometimes ask myself if it is simply ignorance and incompetence or if there is something more sinister to it.

The Obesity epidemic

I could write a book about all the health problems caused by the medical-pharmaceutical complex and the neglectful way in which health authorities contribute to our diseases. In addition to directly causing diseases, these same forces also prevent the healing of these same diseases by restricting, suppressing and persecuting the practitioners of natural medicine as well as giving disease-causing nutritional advice.

Until 1980 the rate of obesity and Type 2 diabetes was fairly stable. However, when health authorities in the USA started vilifying foods containing fats and cholesterol, and recommended eating more carbohydrates instead, obesity increased from 15% of the adult US population to 25% within one decade and continued to rise to 32.9% in 2003-2004 (30). Type 2 diabetes became an epidemic as well. In addition, for the first time in history a large number of obese children developed Type 2 diabetes. Since then it is no longer called maturity-onset diabetes. Also children start now developing Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes simultaneously (31, 32, 33). All of these are iatrogenic diseases, caused by the medical system.

Natural practitioners are experts in preventing and successfully treating chronic diseases with nutrition and other natural methods. This includes the metabolic syndrome which leads to diabetes, heart disease and overweight. It is routinely and quickly remedied with proper nutrition, but with accepted medical practice it becomes a life-long condition managed with more or less toxic drugs. Surgery is used for a wide range of conditions, and patients are severely traumatized or mutilated for life when these problems could be successfully treated with natural therapies.

Vaccinations

Vaccinations are the proud showpiece of drug medicine in eliminating the dreaded childhood infections of previous centuries. However, long-term statistics and diagrams tell a different story. Starting between 1850 and 1900 scarlet fever, diphtheria, whooping cough, and measles had declined by about 90% by the time general vaccination was introduced for each disease. While statistics vary between different countries, this is generally true for England, the United States and Australia. W hooping cough had declined in England by about 98.5% before a vaccine became generally available, and measles had declined by over 99%. Tuberculosis had declined by 87% when antibiotics first became available and by 93% before the introduction of the BCG vaccine. The death rate from rheumatic fever had declined by 86% when penicillin was introduced (34). All of this has obviously more to do with better plumbing than with vaccinations.

There are also statistics showing that death rates from targeted diseases rose with the introduction of vaccines. Other side-effects ascribed to modern vaccines are cot or crib death (SIDS), a strong rise in autism and ADHD, and shaken baby syndrome (spot bleeding in the brain) which apparently landed innocent parents in jail. Experts strongly deny that there is a connection between vaccines and autism, but it is strange nevertheless that the rates of autism have suddenly exploded after greatly increased numbers of vaccinations in recent decades, and there is no obvious alternative reason. Also autism is absent in Amish children who are generally not vaccinated. Vaccinated children are reported to have about 150% more neurological disorders such as ADHD and autism compared to unvaccinated children (35).

Another curios aspect of vaccine safety statistics was highlighted by Dr Archie Kalokerinos. Working in the remote Australian outback with Aboriginals he found that every second child died as a result of vaccinations. Because deaths commonly occurred about three weeks later, they were not recorded as vaccine-related; officially reactions were limited to occur only for up to 2 weeks after vaccination. However, eventually Dr Kalokerinos solved the problem by giving babies high doses of vitamin C before vaccinations, and no more vaccination deaths occurred. Also SIDS disappeared. Naturally he encountered ridicule and hostility from his medical colleges, and babies are still dying needlessly (36).

Deliberate Bias Against Natural Therapies

It has become a habit that any successful natural cancer remedy or treatment is quickly outlawed by our health authorities. Many natural health practitioners have been dragged before the courts and often imprisoned, especially in the area of cancer treatment (37). This is especially regrettable because there is no evidence that the methods of orthodox cancer therapy are in any way successful (38).

One of the methods increasingly used to denigrate natural therapies is for the pharmaceutical industry to finance shoddy research on natural remedies and then proclaim them to be ineffective or harmful. This is only partly intended to influence the general public but mainly to provide the justification for health authorities to outlaw and greatly restrict natural remedies (39).

Another strategy is not to list favorable vitamin studies in the MEDLINE database. This is taxpayer-funded and operated by the US National Library of Medicine. All it Lists Research Articles by medical journals, Including Time Magazine and Readers’ Digest, BUT Not the peer-Reviewed Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine ( http://www.orthomed.org/jom/jomlist.htm ) Which specializes in vitamin Research. Now the British Medical Journal has published a letter about Medline bias (40) and this has forced Medline to index articles on Medline bias.

Because all these favorable vitamin studies are not indexed by Medline, proponents of drug medicine can claim that there are no studies that show that vitamins are useful in the treatment of diseases or that they are safe in high doses, and therefore should be restricted to very low doses. Of course, world-wide yearly fatalities due to vitamins are zero; in comparison drug fatalities are infinitely higher.

30 years ago Linus Pauling showed that high doses of vitamin C are beneficial in cancer treatment. This has been ‘disproved’ by the orthodoxy ever since. But now a study by conventional Johns Hopkins scientists has shown that he was right (41). In addition, the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine has just published a double-blind, randomized clinical trial showing that HIV-positive patients given supplemental nutrients can stop their decline into AIDS (42). This would pose a big threat to the medical-pharmaceutical complex and is one more reason not to index this journal on Medline.

There exists a systemic culture of suppression of dissenting views in science and medicine, and frequently a vicious persecution with “Gestapo-like” methods (43, 44). Recently in the US even a mother has been jailed and brutalized for “illegally” using natural methods to cure her son of malignant melanoma (45).

Of course, this assault of the medical-pharmaceutical complex on natural healing methods is not illegal. On the contrary, in a capitalist system it is their duty to maximize profits by eliminating the competition and generating a steady supply of patients with chronic diseases who can be managed indefinitely with drugs. The question is just why do government health authorities make and enforce laws on behalf of drug medicine and against natural medicine?

Theoretically they should be impartial and ensure the best outcome for the population. I believe the answer can be found in some good lateral thinking by the pharmaceutical industry. By paying for and influencing much of the medical education (46, 47, 48), they automatically produce health officials and government advisers who are steeped in pharmaceutical thinking and biased against natural medicine. No bribery is needed, but health officials always know that there is a well-paid job waiting if and when they want to retire from government service, simple!

Natural Medicine to the Rescue

Health authorities so far have ignored the claims and evidence of natural medicine that it is the superior form of treatment for chronic and medically incurable diseases. The very fact of a high rate of chronic disease in our society attests to the inability of the medical profession to successfully treat these diseases. I have no doubt that natural medicine could eliminate most chronic diseases within a decade, needing only a few percent of the money that is spent on conventional medicine. The knowledge is already available; no expensive high-tech research is needed that may or may not give results sometime in the future.

There is a simple low-cost solution for bringing about the healing of our society:

1. Phase out public assistance for pharmaceutical companies and their research, and require research to show that a drug is safe with long-term use in combination with other common drugs and chemicals and with old or fragile patients, or alternatively that it is superior in the long -term to available natural treatments

2. Make it illegal for pharmaceutical companies to fund medical education or provide drug information, marketing or incentives directly to the public or to medical practitioners, or to employ former health officials. Information to medical practitioners should be provided by an independent and impartial body

3. Except for unethical conduct according to general society standards, make it illegal for medical associations to restrict the therapies used by their members

4. Afford qualified practitioners of natural medicine the same recognition and opportunities as those of drug medicine, including in hospitals, rehabilitation, research and publications, health departments and regulating authorities

So far our medical and economic leaders do not want to face reality. They brainwash the public into believing that the present health situation is completely normal. Importantly, the whole economic structure of Western civilization is based on the production and distribution of goods and services that are contributing to poor health. These include chemicalized agriculture and food processing, the pharmaceutical industry, technological medicine and the petrochemical and plastics industries.

The guiding motto for industry is ‘profit’, while for the consumer it is ‘convenience’. The price for all to pay is the loss of health. This situation is the natural outcome of a society based on selfish motivation. A change for the better can only come when more and more people realize that ultimately they harm themselves with selfish attitudes, and start electing leaders who are prepared to act in a compassionate and cooperative way in the interest of the whole society. We get what we choose: natural health or enduring drug management.

REFERENCES

(1) Null, G, Dean, C. et al.: Death by Medicine. Nutrition Institute of America, Nov 2003, http://www.NutritionInstituteOfAmerica.org

(2) Mendelsohn, RS Confessions of a Medical Heretic. McGraw-Hill 1990, first published Contemporary Books, Chicago, 1979

(3) Truss, CO: The Missing Diagnosis. Truss, Birmingham, AL, 1983

(4) Crook, WG: The Yeast Connection. Vintage Books, NY 1986

(5) Cantwell, A. “The Cancer Microbe. Aries Rising Press, Los Angeles, 1990. http://ariesrisingpress.com/ IS Alan Cantwell’s Website

(6) Motluk, Alison, “Baby study links antibiotics to asthma” New Scientist 30 September 2003

(7) G. Huffnagle and MC Noverr in the January 2005 issue of Infection & Immunity

(8) Crane J, Pearce N. et al: Prescribed fenoterol and death from asthma in New Zealand, 1981-83: case-control study. Lancet 1989, Apr 29; 1 (8644) :917-22

(9) Bhatia, S., Robison, LL et al.: Breast cancer and other second neoplasms after childhood Hodgkin’s disease. N Engl J Med. Mar 21 1996, 334 (12) :745-51.

(10) Klein-Szanto, AJP: Carcinogenic effects of chemotherapeutic compounds. Progress in Clinical and Biological Research, 374, 167-74, 1992.

(11) Klingspor, L., Stintzing, G., Tollemar, J. Deep Candida infection in children with leukaemia. Acta Paediatr 86 (1) 30-6, 1997

(12) Moss, RW: THE MOSS REPORTS Newsletter # 128 April 11/04

(13) Reynolds T.: Salary a major factor for academic oncologists, study shows. J Natl Cancer Inst 2001; 93 (7): 491. Retrieved March 12, 2004 from: http://jncicancerspectrum.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/jnci; 93/7/491 and Abelson, Reed. Drug sales bring huge PROFITS, Cancer and scrutiny to doctors. New York Times . January 26, 2003, page A1. Cancer scare tactics: New York Times editorial March 22, 2004
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/22/opinion/22MON2.html . Also in THE MOSS REPORTS Newsletter # 126 03/28/04

(14) Karthaus, M. Treatment of fungal infections led to leukemia remissions. Sept. 28, 1999

(15) White, MW Medical Hypotheses. 1996; 47.35 to 38

(16) Etzel, RA Mycotoxins. Jan 23, 2002. 387 (4). Journal of the American Medical Association

(17) Simoncini, T.: Is the Cause of Cancer a Common Fungus? Nexus Magazine Vo. 14 / 5, 2007, Also http://www.cancerfungus.com

(18) The English-language Official Website of Dr Hamer IS at http://www.newmedicine.ca . Also see The New Medicine of Dr Hamer (Nexus Magazine and 10/5 http://www.health-science-spirit.com/hamer.html )

(19) Price, Weston A., Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, first published 1939, http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=226

(20) Meinig, GE: Root Canal Cover-Up. Bion Publ. 1993 http://www.ppnf.org / catalog / ppnf / Articles / Rootcanal.htm

(21) Price, Joseph M: Coronaries / Cholesterol / Chlorine. Jove Books, New York, 1981

(22) ibid.

(23) Comments by Prof. Deborah Cory-Slechta, Ph.D. reported at http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Paraquat-Maneb-Parkinsons.htm

(24) Bernard Windham: http://www.flcv.com / dams.html and http://www.flcv.com / indexa.html

(25) Walter SD, Marrett LD, Shannon HS, From L. and Hertzman C.: The Association of Cutaneous Malignant Melanoma and Fluorescent Light Exposure. Am J Epidemiol 1992; 135:749-62; http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/7/749

(26) http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/energy/cfls/index.html

(27) Press Release: Study shines more Light on Benefit of vitamin D in Fighting Cancer: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/uoc–ssm082107.php

(28) Dr Mercola: Lack of Sunshine Causes One Million Deaths a Year.

(29) Garland CF, Grant WB et al: What is the Dose-Response Relationship between Vitamin D and Cancer Risk? Nutrition Reviews, Volume 65, Supplement 1, August 2007, pp. 91-95 (5)

(30) Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, “Overweight and Obesity”, http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/index.htm

(31) Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, “Number (in Millions) of Persons with Diagnosed Diabetes, United States, 1980 to 2,005″, http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/statistics/prev/national/figpersons.htm

(32) Yale Medical Group, “Type 2 Diabetes Tough on Teens”, August 2007, http://www.yalemedicalgroup.org/news/diabetes_807.html

(33) Thompson, Dennis, “‘Double Diabetes’ a New Threat”, 3 December 2006, http://www.livescience.com/healthday/534999.html

(34) http://www.whale.to/a/graphs.html and http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php

(35) Generation Rescue Press Release 25 September 2007, http://www.generationrescue.org/survey_pr.html

(36) Archie Kalokerinos: Every Second Child. Thomas Nelson (Australia) Melbourne1974 and Keats Publishing New Canaan CT 1981

(37) Walter Last: Persecution of Natural Cancer Therapists. http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancerpersecution.html

(38) Walter Last: How Scientific are Orthodox Cancer Treatments? NEXUS 2004; 11 (4); also at http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancerscience.html

(39) For details see Alliance for Natural Health http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/

(40) http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/331/7531/1487 # 124851

(41) Science Blog 2007-09-10: How vitamin C stops the big ‘C’ http://scienceblog.com/14162/how-vitamin-c-stops-the-big-c/

(42) Namulemia, Edith; Sparling, James; Foster, Harold D. Nutritional supplements can delay the progression of AIDS in HIV-infected patients: results from a double-blinded, clinical trial at Mengo Hospital, Kampala, Uganda. Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine 2007; 22 (3), 129-136.

(43) James DeMeo: The Suppression of Dissent and Innovative Ideas In Science and Medicine; http://www.orgonelab.org/suppression.htm

(44) Brian Martin, “Suppression of Dissent in Science”, Research in Social Problems and Public Policy, Volume 7, edited by William R. Freudenburg and Ted IK Youn (Stamford, CT: JAI Press, 1999), pp. 105-135. Available on-line: http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/99rsppp.html

(45)

(46) New Scientist 19 October 2007: Scale of Pharma Payments to med schools Revealed http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg19626263.500

(47) Professor Christopher Nordin: The Pharmaceutical industry and doctors’ Prescribing habits. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2007/2056879.htm

(48) Campbell, EG et al: Institutional Academic – Industry Relationships. JAMA 2007, 298:1779-1786. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/86180.php?nfid=44282

Here we go with the weasel words. Why is medicine always “science based” and “evidence based”?

Examine the topic in depth and you discover the terminology is deliberate to mask the unsavory truth that the “scientific method” is largely absent in modern medicine.

Ivor, homeopathy does not work because it has no mechanism by which it could possibly work. The memory effect of water is a fiction. That it doesn’t work has been proven beyond doubt by many large well designed and run trials.

Now, please tell me what your definition of an atheist is, if it differs from mine.

Gerard, not all medical practises are science based but those that are get the best results. Homeopathy does not work at all which is why it is not accepted as a treatment by doctors who wish to help people recover from illness.

Gerard, precisely ! Fraudulent practices all use the same techniques ..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An atheist is someone who has never had a spiritual experience. Consequently they grow old as embittered nihilists with evil intent to the human race.

Gary trolldom is trolldom and only exceeded by Zionist trolldom.

Homeopathy works .. it is used by the British Royal Family who of course have access to the very best advice. It is available on the National Health Service in the UK.

The great epidemics of the early 20th century in the UK were controlled by Homeopathy. Allopathy tried to have Homeopathy banned by law and they nearly got away with it, until orthodoxy were caught red handed fiddling the figures about the epidemics and of course the real figures proved beyond a doubt that Homeopathy was superior to orthodox allopathy by very large percentage points.Go and seek it out on the net.

You have not tried it, and because your little mind cannot find a mechanism it is dismissed,how stupid you are .. Try it you fool! and then seek a mechanism.

Its money that motivates your foamy mouthed spittle spraying .. just like the Intelligent Design Controversy. A lot of money is being spent by Corporate Science to disprove alternative ideas or therapy.

Alternative therapies now have well over 50% of the market and growing.
You made some kind of remark earlier in this thread about how you came to this forum to educate people .. well people know what works and what does not work, they know what is safe and what is not safe .. That is why your drum and trumpet are bust Gary, because you are the one that needs to be educated.

Throughout this thread you have insulted and provoked me and yet you whine like a dog when it is given back. You continually lie through your teeth .. you make claims about science which cannot be substantiated .. In fact your porkies would feed a fair sized town.

Garry .. back up the thread a little I left you a New Year Present ..

New Year Gift for Garry.

ARE MOST DISEASES CAUSED BY THE MEDICAL SYSTEM?

By Walter Last

Just because the royal family has access to the best available advice doesn’t mean they take it. For example they use homeopathy. Fortunately they use proper science based medicine too so the addition of some clean water and sugar pills are not going to any harm in their case. The is no harm in homeopathic medicines as they have no active ingredients and have no effect. The harm comes when, unlike the royal family, people rely on it instead of proven medicines.
There is plenty of reliable scientific evidence for the failure of homeopathy to have any effects. But as you seem to think annecdotes are reliable as evidence, maybe you should look at the whatstheharm link I posted earlier.

Now please define what you mean by a spiritual experience. I suspect that what you describe will be easily explained as a brain malfunction.

Oh, and there is no intelligent design controversy in the scientific community. It is a minority fringe view shared by a tiny number of scientists. The more someone studies the natural world the more one realizes that the only designer was natural selection. There is no intelligence behind the design of the human prostate gland as you will have learned for yourself by now.

There is realy no such thing as alternative medicine. There is just medicine that works and medicine that doesn’t work. Medicine that doesn’t work is call alternative and it produces the alternative to health.
Homeopathy has been proven not to work. The proof is readily available and undeniable by any sane person once exposed to the evidence.
Ditto for acupuncture.
Intelligent Design, the bunkum formerly known as Creationism, has also been proven to be wrong. Evolution by natural selection is now the only theory that explains all the data relating to the development of life on earth.

Garry, scroll back along the thread .. Walter Last has some words for you.

You can deny all you want, it does not alter the facts of the matter.

The health stats have proved that orthodox medicine is the number one killer in the USA .. this in front of war even.

Well the time is coming for the baby maimers and killers and their cheer leaders .. and there will be a tidal wave of enraged parents to ensure that the ultimate penalty is awarded and executed (pun intended)

There are many people who are not aware of what is going on in the hospitals because it is not reported in the MSM ..
Walter Last will tell you why. But then you probably do not have the guts to read it.

Garry .. Prostate gland .. have you got one ? Do you even know what its purpose is ?

To the chagrin of pharmageddon .. prostate problems are not the norm for men. The medical treatment which does not work is another pharmageddon scam .. creating a large problem and more guinea pigs and of course oodles of boodle. Many of the so called prostate problems are cured by a change of diet.

The scam is the same as the mammogram debacle and the usual more harm than good scenario.

Now please define what you mean by a spiritual experience. I suspect that what you describe will be easily explained as a brain malfunction.

Jeez! Just had a look at Walter’s web site … What a load of pseudo scientific balderdash.
Now I realize just how uneducated and gullible you are Ivor. Astounding load of unsupported nonsense. The sugar cure for the common cold is hilarious. Mucic acid? I personally know people who do not injest dairy products and they get just as many colds as the rest of us. So that’s that crackpot idea out the window.

Thanks for the laugh.

Garry,

Brain malfunction ? Its for sure that you have never had a Spiritual Experience. Oh well Scientism has never been noted for its breadth of mind.

Science used to believe in the flat earth before it moved on, but how odd .. as it moves on it never accepts responsibility for the harm that science has done before it moves on.

Grow up Garry and understand how narrow the scientific mind really is .. Scientific thought changes its mind so often that one is led to think of Greek Athletes Jock Straps.

I would rather believe Walter Lasts account before I believe yours Garry he appears to be above you when it comes to education ..

Of course science changes when new information comes to hand. Surely that is what you do too? Or do you stick to your old beliefs long after you have received new information that renders them invalid?

….and nothing has ever led me to think of Greek Athletes Jock Straps. Probably better if you keep your strange perversions to yourself.

gary you don’t think you are told what to say
TROLL

Jas, I think you meant to write ” Gary, you don’t think; you are told what to say. TROLL”

See how the punctuation makes your meaning much clearer?

Garry,

Science used to believe in the flat earth before it moved on, but how odd .. as it moves on it never accepts responsibility for the harm that science has done before it moves on.

Natural Medicine does not make, or use human and animals to test its weird molecules.

Science cannot make its own molecules, it borrows them from nature and tinkers with them, and then experiments on people.

Science and its trolls, continually kill and then moves on by stealing ideas from natural medicine.

Science and its trolls continually insist that they are right .. before they move on to a better money making wheeze.

ARE MOST DISEASES CAUSED BY THE MEDICAL SYSTEM?

By Walter Last

I do not want to pretend that this is an impartial investigation. Instead I am now fully convinced that most diseases are indeed caused by the medical system, and in the following I want to state my reasons for this conclusion.

Increasingly over the years my health beliefs have been turned around. I started out by working as a biochemist and toxicologist in university medical departments fully believing that all these chronic and incurable diseases are indeed incurable and generally of unknown origin, but that pharmaceutical drugs made ​​life easier for patients and often were even curative. My re-education started after immigrating to New Zealand and learning about natural healing and living; this made ​​me realize that disease is mainly caused by unnatural living conditions and can be overcome by natural methods of living and healing.

While I learned about the harmful nature of drug treatment, I was still thinking of it as being ineffective and causing side-effects rather than as a main cause of our diseases. Diseases caused by medical treatment are called iatrogenic diseases. The total number of iatrogenic deaths in the USA for 2001 is estimated to be 783,936. These were due to fatal drug reactions, medical error and unnecessary medical and surgical procedures. With this, the medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States . In comparison the 2001 heart disease death rate was 699,697 and the annual cancer death rate 553,251 (1).

This is also the reason why it is so beneficial for patients when doctors go on strike. Statistics show that whenever there was a strike by doctors, the death rate in the affected population fell dramatically. In 1976 the death rate fell by 35 per cent in Bogotá , Colombia . In Los Angeles County , California , It fell by 18 per cent during a strike in the same year, while in Israel it fell by 50 per cent during a strike in 1973. Only once before was there a similar drop in the death rate in Israel and that was during another doctors’ strike 20 years earlier. After each strike the death rate jumped again to its normal level (2).

However these figures of iatrogenic deaths do not take into account iatrogenic diseases from the long-term harm done by medical treatments where patients survive but with a chronic disease. My real awakening to this problem started when I became aware of the story of Orion Truss who discovered the Candidiasis-causing potential of antibiotics.

Dr Last provides a comprehensive index of references to support his claims. The Full article may be accessed by scrolling back along the thread.

Hmmm. Do you think I would be healthier today if I had let mu appendix burst rather than have it surgically removed?

Yeah, right.

Check out this….

http://scepticsbook.com/2010/06/14/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy/

Ivor, it is possible to make molecules. You can make molecules of water by combining oxygen and hydrogen.
BANG

Garry please do not be a dickhead my comment was as follows ….

Science cannot make its own molecules, it borrows them from nature and tinkers with them, and then experiments on people.
==================================

A molecule is two or more atoms .. An atom is rarely found in nature and according to the theory (Note the word theory because that is how scienctism avoids many embarrassing things)

what Garry dickhead really means is a molecule of hydrogen and a molecule of oxygen make water .. now if what Garry dickhead has to say is true .. then then the earth does not have a water problem because science will save us, but we have a water problem on a global scale.

Science does not know shit .. science is the biggest scam since the sale of the Brooklyn Bridge. All it does is to cause problems .. little boys playing with toys at our expense.

Science gives the formula for the basis of life as 6CO2 + 6H2O ==> C6H12O6 + 6O2 the major problem with this is .. the formula does not work ..

There are various fragments of materia medica from the ancient Babylonian and Egyptian eras. Examination of the medical recipes show a fine grasp of the knowledge required of a sophisticated system of medicine. It cannot be simply brushed aside, as magical mumbo jumbo.

Some of the recipes contained animal and insect parts, while others contained faeces from various sources. In the past it has been the trend, in orthodox medical circles, to dismiss such formulations as gutter or sewer pharmacy, while ignoring the obvious parallel with modern Sera and vaccines. However, today a more enlightened interpretation of the evidence is steadily gaining ground, e.g.,

“So also the ancient idea of urine and other secretions as drugs might easily be written off as primitive superstition if we did not know that it led by rational if quasi-empirical trains of thought combined with the use of chemical techniques originally developed for quite different purposes, to the preparation of the steroid and protein hormones many centuries before the time of experimental endocrinology and biochemistry.”

Doctor Joseph Needham
Science and Civilisation in China’.
Vol. 5 Chapter 15 Cambridge.

The most famous of the Egyptian medical writings, is the so called ‘Ebers’ papyrus, which has been dated Circa 1550 BC. Over 3,500 years old, therefore, we must avoid the trap of confusing technology with intelligence, or considering scientific theory to be superior to empirical knowledge, because clearly it is not.
================================
The human brain, so frail, so perishable,so full of inexhaustible dreams and hungers
burns by the power of a leaf.
Loren Eiseley. PhD
=================================
We do not know what matter really is. We do not know what a Proton is made of.
We do not know what an Electron is made of, And the words only serve to cloak our ignorance.

Professor Louis C. Kervran
Biological Transmutations.
============================

The quoted names ring like great Cathedral bells in my consciousness Garry boy and they have led me on many mental epics to try to touch where they are at.

You are a fool Garry boy and to make matters worse you are so puffed up with your own self importance that you have not realised that.

I think I must agree with Jas a smacked out troll.

The scientific method as we know it today is only about 300 years old. We have known that the earth is round for thousands of years, so your comment about ‘science’ changing its mind about the flat earth is plainly wrong.

“British Government Study Finds Homeopathy Worthless

April 22, 2010

Share this:

             
Homeopathy was invented around 1796 by a doctor named Samuel Hahnemann. He believed that homeopathic medicines become more effective the more they are diluted. Homeopathic solutions are often so literally watered-down that they don’t contain a single molecule of the original medicine or substance: the patient is drinking nothing but water.

Late last month, the British Science and Technology Select Committee (part of the United Kingdom’s Parliament) released the results of a comprehensive examination of whether homeopathy has any medical or scientific validity. The report is devastating to the pseudoscience of homeopathy: “The Committee concluded—given that the existing scientific literature showed no good evidence of efficacy—that further clinical trials of homeopathy could not be justified…. The Committee carried out an evidence check to test if the Government’s policies on homeopathy were based on sound evidence. The Committee found a mismatch between the evidence and policy…. The Government acknowledges there is no evidence that homeopathy works beyond the placebo effect (where a patient gets better because of their belief in the treatment). The Committee concurred with the Government that the evidence base shows that homeopathy is not efficacious and that explanations for why homeopathy would work are scientifically implausible…. ”

The director of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital, Peter Fisher, asserted that for homeopathy to work it is very important that the solutions be shaken. Asked how much shaking is required to make sure that the homeopathic medication was effective, Fisher said he didn’t know because that issue had never been researched: “that has not been fully investigated.” This is a stunning and revealing admission from one of England’s top experts on homeopathy. Homeopathy has been around for over two centuries, and yet during all that time apparently not a single homeopathy practitioner has bothered to do any scientific testing to find out how to make sure what they are selling is effective. This really should give the public pause.

Can you imagine a pharmaceutical company trying to sell you a drug they claim will cure you, but when asked how much active ingredient is necessary for it to be effective, they respond that they never really looked into that?

Like most pseudosciences, homeopathy just falls apart when some science and critical thinking are applied to the claims.”
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/british_government_study_finds_homeopathy_worthless/

Garry dickhead,

try it .. try it. Why do you think it continues after centuries .. why do you think all these deluded people use the modality ?

They use it because it solved a health issue for them that orthodoxy could not.

We know all about the Jewish Hasbara game that you play here. I for one am not impressed,what a load of wankers you all are.

No attempt to answer the charges just bullshit after bullshit .. Try it you stupid fool .. try it!

Can you imagine a pharmaceutical company trying to sell you a drug they claim will cure you, but when asked how much active ingredient is necessary for it to be effective, they respond that they never really looked into that?
==============================
Yes Garry boy .. Just look at the stats .. what you stated is their usual approach and what is more .. by law they cannot be held accountable.
=================================
But the murderer is usually bought to book .. see ya all in court
=================================

I am a POM Garry boy so we know all about the shonky fixed committee,s and about shonky governments .. Britain is a ZOG just like America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

We are going to see you bastards in court and then demand the ultimate form of revenge.

Have a nice year Garry dickhead.

The reason people stil try homeopathy is the same reason they still believe in astrology. They are scientifically illiterate and gullible.
……and possibly wacko.

Must watch
gary you are the people this doctor is talking about.TROLL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8&feature=player_embedded

Yes Ivor, You Poms do have a shonky government. It is still providing witchcraft, I mean homeopathy, on the NHS despite being told by its own scientific advisors.

I expect you also think astrology works too, probably because YOU have tried it.

Good luck avoiding the flu this winter, and don’t forget your mega doses of vitamin C so your colds only last 7 days instead of the usual week.

Ha ha ha ha.

Ivor says I should try homeopathy. What for? I am not ill. But even if I was I wouldn’t bother with homeopathy.
Here is a small part of a blog post that will help explain why…

“She advises us not to take her word for it  and tells us that we should ask her to substantiate her claim. She even advises us to try to duplicate her experience. Perhaps this is her notion of what a rational, scientifically-minded person should do. But there is no way I or anyone else can substantiate her claim by trying to duplicate it. We don’t have a clear enough idea about her claim to know what we would be trying to substantiate. Her claim that something helped her is too vague to be of any value in trying to duplicate. Is she really saying that if I go to a homeopath and feel better afterward then I have substantiated and duplicated her claim? I think she is. And I think she is mistaken.

Yet, I think I understand what she is saying. If I, for example, went to a homeopath and found that under treatment the pain in my knees went away completely, the pain that I have been having for several years and which my physician tells me is due to bursitis, then I would be irrational not to continue with the homeopathic remedy. Furthermore, it would be irrational not to consult my homeopath should I begin suffering pain, say, in my elbow or shoulder or back. If I could start jogging again, I would be irrational not to continue seeing my homeopath. I might agree. But, if I consulted a homeopath about a new pain that my physician had been unable to relieve me of with science-based therapy and after the homeopathic treatment the pain went away, I would not consider it irrational to not continue going to the homeopath. I would consider it likely that the pain would have gone away had I not consulted the homeopath. (If you are wondering why, consult my entry on the regressive fallacy or read my essay on evaluating personal experience.)

Furthermore, if a homeopathic remedy did cure me of my knee pain, I would want to investigate what was in the remedy. Even though most homeopathic remedies in the U.S. and the UK are little more than water or alcohol, there are a number of products on the market that are labeled homeopathic that have active ingredients in them (see complex homeopathy, isopathy, and nosodes). However, if I did find that my remedy was one of those that had been diluted so many times that there weren’t any molecules remaining of the original active substance, I would rather believe that my pain had suddenly gone away than that the homeopathic remedy had cured me of my pain. Why? Because the known laws of physics and chemistry would have to be completely revamped if a tonic from which nearly every molecule of the active ingredient were removed could be shown to be effective. But if I could yo-yo the pain by stopping and starting the homeopathic remedy under double-blind conditions, I would have to conclude that the potion was having the effect and would have to become an advocate of that homeopathic remedy. This is just to say that homeopathic remedies can be empirically tested. That no remedy has yet been shown to have the effect I have outlined is strong evidence against homeopathic remedies.”

http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html

The following link also provides an insight into Ivor’s strange belief in magic water cures…
“Homeopathy
 
How can people believe in treatments that do not have a demonstrated physiological system to account for its claimed successes?  Such people believe in the duality of the world.  Thus molecules, the body, and the mind all partake in both a physical and spiritual modalities.  To show that there is no physical system in molecules by which the one molecule of a substance can affect the nature of water misses their point.  For homeopathy, they believe the spiritual dimension of the water is affected and in this dimension it can interact with the human bodies’ spiritual dimension of the human body to produce curative results.   Thus that a homeopathic product can produce no measurable physical response is irrelevant, for they believe it has produced changes in the spiritual dimension of matter and also of the person taking this water. ”
http://www.skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id7.html

gary the TROLL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_yj1T8Qu8&feature=player_embedded

Ivor might like this quote…
“You can pare Darwin’s big idea down to a single sentence (again, this is a modern way of putting it, not quite Darwin’s): “Given sufficient time, the non-random survival of hereditary entities (which occasionally miscopy) will generate complexity, diversity, beauty, and an illusion of design so persuasive that it is almost impossible to distinguish from deliberate intelligent design.” I have put “which occasionally miscopy” in brackets because mistakes are inevitable in any copying process. We don’t need to add mutation to our assumptions. Mutational “bucks” are provided free. “Given sufficient time” is not a problem either – except for human minds struggling to take on board the terrifying magnitude of geological time.

A certain kind of mind

It is mainly its power to simulate the illusion of design that makes Darwin’s big idea seem threatening to a certain kind of mind. The same power constitutes the most formidable barrier to understanding it. People are naturally incredulous that anything so simple could explain so much. To a naive observer of the wondrous complexity of life, it just must have been intelligently designed.

But intelligent design (ID) is the polar opposite of a powerful theory: its explanation ratio is pathetic. The numerator is the same as Darwin’s: everything we know about life and its prodigious complexity. But the denominator, far from Darwin’s pristine and minimalist simplicity, is at least as big as the numerator itself: an unexplained intelligence big enough to be capable of designing all the complexity we are trying to explain in the first place!”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/feb/09/darwin.dawkins1?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

I wonder how Ivor is going to explain the origin and complexity of his mystical designer?

Garry you little hardened nugget of constipated crap .. for an example of constipated crap .. and moronic meanderings in strange places. Try a cut and paste of young Garry,s post as follows.

Because the known laws of physics and chemistry would have to be completely revamped if a tonic from which nearly every molecule of the active ingredient were removed could be shown to be effective.
==========================

All of the crap questions that you have posted, have already been dealt with elsewhere on this thread.

So we have finally found out what the Fuzzy Furballs are really frightened of .. its the threat from peoples medicine .. Here it is for all to see ..

Because the known laws of physics and chemistry would have to be completely revamped. Uh Oh!

Completly Revamped ? .. oh groan 150 years of superior brain excreta will have to be totally revamped. Gulp!

Garry, you want me to to explain the origin and complexity of the mystical designer?

It is a great mystery .. But every cell in my body dances to higher influences so that I am aware that higher forces exist by the effect they produce on me. A simple analogy .. the Police and Medical Services are intensely aware of the effect of the full moon on some people. But it is a great mystery to me.

Then look at the sun .. it goes down and people settle for sleep and it comes up and people get up. It takes no great stretch of imagination to see why some people are Sun Worshipers.

Of all the explanations that I have heard concerning the mystery, the following anecdote is one of the most satisfying to me:

A Kalahari Bushman was asked .. whats it all about Alfie? The bushman first closed his eyes, and after a few moments, said, “It is a Dream, Dreaming a Dream”.

Whilst I remember ,, man made molecules .. they can only be reacted by borrowing molecules from nature .. You have stated incorrectly that man made hydrogen and oxygen produces water .. well if that were really viable why are the crew of the space station drinking each others recycled urine ?

It seems to be the magic formulas are somewhat lacking and do not work .. e.g. Photosynthesis ..

Wrong again Ivor … The full moon has no effect on illness, accident rate or violent behavior.
Neither does homeopathy work.
And your God creator hypothesis has no support from the data and requires more explanation than that which it seeks to explain.
Do you really not understand why they don’t take quantities of oxygen and hydrogen to the space station to burn into water? Hardly a practical undertaking.

And you are satisfied with the explanation that everything came about because of ‘a great mystery’! God did it is where you stop? You are truly easily satisfied by simplistic explanations. This explains why you are so easily taken in by the bogus claims of alternative medicine and creationism.
There is no hope of educating you, but I shall continue to waste your time by winding you up with my little taunts. Might even waste some of jas’s time too. Her posts make no more sense than your’s but have the added entertainment value of being devoid of the dreaded NWO punctuation.

gary
your man made hydrogen and oxygen, is that made on earth with stuff from earth?

Any way here is a link just to keep in the back of your head if you ever need it.

http://www.thinktwice.com/reversal.htm

Garry .. you are a loopy troll.

Now let me see know .. The full moon has no effect on illness, accident rate or violent behavior.

Wrong again Garry because it does. It also has a profound effect on all creatures on this planet.

The lunar cycle: effects on human and animal behavior and physiology

Michał Zimecki

Department of Experimental Therapy, The Institute of Immunology and Experimental Therapy, Polish Academy of Sciences, Wrocław, Poland

Summary

Human and animal physiology are subject to seasonal, lunar, and circadian rhythms. Although the seasonal and circadian rhythms have been fairly well described, little is known about the effects of the lunar cycle on the behavior and physiology of humans and animals. The lunar cycle has an impact on human reproduction, in particular fertility, menstruation, and birth rate. Melatonin levels appear to correlate with the menstrual cycle. Admittance to hospitals and emergency units because of various causes (cardiovascular and acute coronary events, variceal hemorrhage, diarrhea, urinary retention) correlated with moon phases. In addition, other events associated with human behavior, such as traffic accidents, crimes, and suicides, appeared to be influenced by the lunar cycle. However, a number of reports fi nd no correlation between the lunar cycle and human reproduction and admittance to clinics and emergency units. Animal studies revealed that the lunar cycle may affect hormonal changes early in phylogenesis (insects). In fish the lunar clock influences reproduction and involves the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis. In birds, the daily variations in melatonin and corticosterone disappear during full-moon days. The lunar cycle also exerts effects on laboratory rats with regard to taste sensitivity and the ultrastructure of pineal gland cells. Cyclic variations related to the moon’s phases in the magnitude of the humoral immune response of mice to polivinylpyrrolidone and sheep erythrocytes were also described. It is suggested that melatonin and endogenous steroids may mediate the described cyclic alterations of physiological processes. The release of neurohormones may be triggered by the electromagnetic radiation and/or the gravitational pull of the moon. Although the exact mechanism of the moon’s influence on humans and animals awaits further exploration, knowledge of this kind of biorhythm may be helpful in police surveillance, medical practice, and investigations involving laboratory animals.

Key words: lunar cycle • reproduction • melatonin • immune response

Source:Postepy Hig Med Dosw., 2006; 60: 1-7.

Garry I prefer my explanation of God to the scientific big bang theory. Science is just a little sliver of human understanding and of course that is plainly obvious when we all watch your dissembling and squirming. You never answer questions and spend your time poring over the posts here looking for full stops and comma.s

What you need is a 1 litre of a strong infusion of Tinvelly Senna and sent to bed with a chamber pot .. whether that will be sufficient to clean out all the shit which you are full of I cannot say but if still having problems repeat the dose.

Science considers that statistical analysis is the gold standard, this is another of the numerology scams that science pulls and it appears that ‘Lead Standard’ is more fitting.
=================================

Why Most Published Research Findings
Are False
John P. A. Ioannidis (Plos Medicine)

Summary
There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim
is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the
same question, and, importantly, the ratio of true to no relationships among the
relationships probed in each scientific field. In this framework, a research finding is less likely to be true when the studies conducted in a field are smaller; when effect sizes are smaller; when there is a greater number and lesser preselection
of tested relationships; where there is greater flexibility in designs, definitions,outcomes, and analytical modes; when there is greater financial and other
interest and prejudice; and when more teams are involved in a scientific field in chase of statistical significance.
Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true.
Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the
prevailing bias. In this essay, I discuss the implications of these problems for the conduct and interpretation of research.
================================

This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecular.org/subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml are included.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, January 3, 2012
Every Good Doctor Must Represent the Patient:
The Malfunction of Evidence-Based Medicine

by Daniel L. Scholten

(OMNS, Jan 3, 2012) What follows is an innovative new paper that we feel deserves publication. We concede that this article is a stretch for OMNS in both size and content. However, the nonstandard but thought-provoking aspects of this work need to be presented and we choose to let our readers read or delete. – Andrew W. Saul, OMNS Editor.

As part of their recent OMNS critique of the practice of “evidence-based” medicine (EBM) http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v07n15.shtml (1), researchers Steve Hickey and Hilary Roberts argue that the legalistic requirements of EBM, such as its insistence on treatments that have met the “gold standard” of “well-designed, large-scale, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled, clinical trials”, actually prevent doctors from effectively diagnosing and treating their patients. In this article, I would like to elaborate on this part of their argument, which they warrant with a piece of cybernetic common-sense (2) known variously as the “Good-Regulator” theorem (GRT), or “Conant and Ashby” theorem, after the researchers who published its original proof. (3)

No need to worry about the technical jargon. If you can read these words then you have already understood something important about this result from the system sciences, even if you don’t call it that. (4) Likewise, if you have ever used a street map to navigate a new city, a book index to browse the contents of a book, or perhaps an x-ray image or lab report to diagnose a patient’s ailment, then you are already quite comfortable handling at least the gist of this conceptual power-tool, which can be paraphrased as follows: every good solution to a problem must be a representation of that problem. (5)
What’s It All about?

Here are several other ways to paraphrase the theorem:

Every good regulator of a system must be a model of that system.
Every good key must be a model of the lock it opens. (6)
Control implies resemblance.
Identical situations imply identical responses.

The basic idea of the theorem can be illustrated with simple thought experiments. (7) Just imagine trying to order a meal in a new restaurant without using a menu, or assemble a piece of furniture without an instruction pamphlet, or diagnose diabetes without a blood-sugar lab report. Of course, you could probably muddle your way through any number of situations with roughly the same basic set of skills that was available to our preliterate ancestors, but the unassailable fact of the matter is that maps, menus, x-ray images, and medical lab reports are potent performance enhancers and without them we risk getting lost, going hungry, or medically misdiagnosing. (8,9)
Why is There a Problem?

The truth of this can be easily obscured. One problem is that some representations are clearly better than others. At the extreme we have outdated maps, poorly written instruction pamphlets and menus with mouthwatering images that turn out to represent bland, salty, or greasy food. Another problem is that representations – from street-maps to MRI scans – can be costly to prepare. Furthermore, the expertise required to prepare or use them is costly to acquire, as measured by the years, dollars, and brain-sweat it takes to complete one’s formal education. The upshot here is that those paying the costs of such representations might reasonably wonder whether those costs outweigh the benefits. Perhaps there is a cheaper way to enhance the performance of our system regulators, to find “good solutions” to our problems, and “good keys” to fit the locks we wish to open.

One common work-around is to rely on a memorized “mental model.” Although this approach works fine for simple tasks, such as a quick stop at the grocery store to pick up extra milk, as soon as a task becomes even moderately complex, the limitations of working-memory (10) quickly render this approach useless, little better than using no representation at all. Another approach is to simply avoid the sorts of complex behavior that require us to use external representations. In the end, we must all rely heavily on this approach, if for no other reason than because the cost, time and effort required to learn how to use, say, ultrasound imaging equipment, necessarily blocks one from simultaneously learning to use, say, actuarial modeling techniques, or perhaps the Hubble Space telescope. To choose is to renounce. But this approach also has its limits and the total avoidance of such complex behaviors – perhaps due to illiteracy, innumeracy or maybe a deliberate decision to return to a preliterate hunter-gatherer way of life – is just a different sort of burden.

Yet a third way to dodge expensive models or modeling expertise is to look for “multipurpose” representations; for instance, generalized maps, menus, and user-guides, that can be reused for many different cities, restaurants, and types of equipment. (11) According to Hickey and Roberts, this third approach is actually the one that EBM advocates.
One Key Cannot Fit All Locks

They illustrate their argument with the above-mentioned lock-and-key paraphrase of the Good-Regulator theorem. To follow it, we start by making the analogy that a given patient’s symptoms are a a “lock” the doctor hopes to “open.” It follows then, by the Good-Regulator theorem, that the doctor’s diagnostic and therapeutic behaviors must “model” (represent) these symptoms. A critical qualification to be added, however, is that the doctor must model these symptoms as they occur within the specific context of the patient’s genotypically and phenotypically “characteristic anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry.” (12)

Of course, this does not mean that the doctor must perform some outlandish Jim Carey-esque caricature of the patient, perhaps donning the patient’s same clothing, hairstyle, speech patterns, behavioral mannerisms, etc. Rather, it means that the associations that arise between the doctor’s diagnostic and therapeutic responses and the patient’s symptoms must be characterized by the same sort of conventional reliability that holds between the splashes of color on, for example, a map of Manhattan and the real streets, parks, and buildings in the actual city of Manhattan.

If that splash only occasionally represented Lincoln Center – or if it sometimes represented Central Park, and sometimes, say, the South Street Seaport – you would surely be confused. Even though one could use the same given splash on a map to represent two or more real-world landmarks, common-sense and strong cultural conventions require each given color splash to reliably represent just one particular real-world location. As established by Conant and Ashby’s Good-Regulator Theorem, a doctor’s responses must have the same sort of reliable association to a given patient’s symptoms. This reliability allows us to construe the doctor’s responses as a representation or model of the patient’s symptoms. (13) “Evidence-based” medicine (EBM), with its insistence on treatments that have been confirmed by “well-designed, large-scale, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled, clinical trials” (14) will almost always cripple a doctor’s ability to model symptoms as they actually occur within the anatomically, physiologically, and biochemically specific context of a given patient. By way of analogy, we might consider a whimsically allegorical “evidence-based locksmith” (EBL) attempting to open a particular lock with the latest and greatest “Whiz-Bang EBL Master Key,” recently developed in accord with results determined by a meta-analysis of hundreds of “well-designed, large-scale, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials.” Those trials have determined the absolute critical attributes of the perfectly average key, and the patently absurd claim is that the Whiz-Bang Master Key, by virtue of its perfectly average attributes, can now be used to open any particular lock.

Pretty silly, isn’t it.

Clearly such a perfectly average key would open very few locks, if any. To reason otherwise is to commit the “ecological fallacy,” which Hickey and Roberts summarize as “the assumption that a population value…can be applied to a specific individual.” (15) If one tries to shove such a key into some particular lock, twisting and pulling in an effort to force it, then that violates the Good-Regulator Theorem, which reminds us that a good key must actually fit the lock it’s supposed to open, not some other lock, and especially not some hypothetical perfectly average lock. The same goes for actual medical practice.
EBM Stops Doctors from Effective Practice

We still need scientific research and the data it presents. Representations are potent performance enhancers. Just imagine what our lives would be like without grocery lists, the periodic table of the elements, and ultrasound imaging techniques. But however obvious and abundant the evidence might be, medical judgment is impaired by an apparent lapse of common sense. The practice of EBM may well be a consequence of the legal system and pharmaceutical corporate bottom line. In other words, money.

But whatever the cause of such impairment, the limitations of real people, real illnesses and real doctors point to the reality that EBM is DOA. The patient is not a statistic. The treatment should not be a statistic. Every good doctor must represent the patient. Personally.

(Daniel L. Scholten has a degree in mathematical sciences and over 12 years of information technology experience as programmer, analyst and consultant. He founded the The Good-Regulator Project [http://www.goodregulatorproject.org], an independent, volunteer research effort dedicated to increasing public awareness and understanding of the crucial role played by models and representations in the regulation of complex systems.)

Notes & Reference:

1. Hickey, Steve and Roberts, Hilary, Tarnished Gold: The Sickness of Evidence-Based Medicine, 2011, CreateSpace.

2. A more complete list of “mostly self-evident” cybernetic principles, including the Good-Regulator theorem, have been compiled by Francis Heylighen. See “Principles of Systems and Cybernetics: An Evolutionary Perspective”, available on-line http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/PrinciplesCybSys.pdf.

In his paper, Heylighen distinguishes between Conant and Ashby’s “Good-Regulator Theorem” and a “Law of Requisite Knowledge”, which states that “In order to adequately compensate perturbations, a control system must ‘know’ which action to select from the variety of available actions.” Note that although Heylighen distinguishes between them, he also states that these are equivalent principles.

3. Conant, Roger C. and Ashby, W. Ross, 1970, “Every Good Regulator Of A System Must Be A Model Of That System”, International Journal of Systems Science, vol. 1, No. 2, 89-97.

4. Those of us who can read sometimes take it for granted. Many don’t have this luxury. According to a recent UNESCO fact sheet, in 2009 more than 16% of the world’s adults (793 million people) were illiterate, with more than 64% of these being women. “Adult and Youth Literacy”, UIS Fact Sheet, September 2011, no. 16, The Unesco Institute for Statistics. Available online at http://www.uis.unesco.org/FactSheets/Documents/FS16-2011-Literacy-EN.pdf

5. I have argued for the plausibility of this paraphrase in Scholten, Daniel L., 2010, “Every Good Key Must Be A Model Of The Lock It Opens: The Conant And Ashby Theorem Revisited”, available on-line at http://www.goodregulatorproject.org. It is also congruent with an observation made by Herbert A. Simon: “Solving a problem means representing it so as to make the solution transparent”; Simon, Herbert A., 1981, The Sciences of the Artificial, 2nd edition, MIT Press, Cambridge, MA; as cited in Norman, Donald A., Things That Make Us Smart: Defending Human Attributes in the Age of the Machine, pg. 53, 1993, Basic Books, New York, NY.

6. Scholten, ibid.

7. Although I believe that such thought experiments are justified in the context of the present argument, their use in general should not be taken lightly. After all, as notes James Robert Brown, they have been used to refute the Copernican world view. See, Brown, James Robert, 1991, The Laboratory of the Mind: Thought Experiments in the Natural Sciences, Routledge, New York, NY; page 35. See also, Brown, James Robert and Fehige, Yiftach, “Thought Experiments”, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2011 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2011/entries/thought-experiment/.

8. A critical distinction that can be made between an idealized good-regulator model, which is really a dynamic entity, and its “technical specification”, or what we might call its control-model. (Scholten, Daniel, L., “A Primer For The Conant And Ashby Theorem”, http://www.goodregulatorproject.org).

Another distinction to be recognized is that whereas the good-regulator model is dynamic, the control-model may be either static or dynamic.

As an example of a static control-model, consider a written recipe for roast duck, being used by an inexperienced cook to prepare an evening meal for guests. In this case, the system to be regulated consists of the various ingredients and kitchen tools to be used to create the meal, the dynamic good-regulator model is the human being doing the cooking, and the recipe is what we are calling the static control-model. The recipe is a control-model because the human being uses it, like a technical specification, to guide (control) his behavior and thus to “turn himself into” a good-regulator model.

As an example of a dynamic control-model, consider the case in which a child learns to use an idiomatic expression such as “two wrongs don’t make a right” by overhearing an adult use that expression in a conversation. In this case the system to be regulated is a particular portion of some conversation in which the child is participating, the dynamic good-regulator model is the child, and the dynamic control-model is the adult role-model. The idea here is that the adult’s behavior serves as a type of dynamic technical specification that the child then uses to control his or her own behavior in the context of the given conversation.

It is important to make these distinctions between a dynamic good-regulator model and its static or dynamic technical specification because otherwise the GRT appears to prove that the technical specification (control-model) is necessary, which is, I believe, a misreading of the theorem. The GRT only proves that the good-regulator model is necessary. On the other hand, it does appear to be an empirical fact that such technical specifications are also necessary. The thought-experiments illustrate this explicitly, although they also help us to see what our behavior looks like when we aren’t acting as good-regulator models.

(For an in-depth, authoritative analysis of behavioral modeling, see Bandura, A., Social Foundations Of Thought & Action: A Social-Cognitive Theory, Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey)

9. Let’s recognize that one uniquely human characteristic is our astonishing capacity to simulate (in the manner of a Turing machine) the behavior of an enormous variety of much simpler and more specific machines. I have written more extensively about this in the “Three-Amibos Good-Regulator Tutorial,” available on-line at http://www.goodregulatorproject.org .

10 For a recent accessible discussion, see Klingberg, Torkel, 2009, The Overflowing Brain: Information Overload And The Limits Of Working Memory, Oxford University Press, New York, NY.

11. I am making the assumption here that the multipurpose model is meant to apply to cities, restaurants, equipment, etc. that are not replicas of each other. Clearly there is no problem if all owners of the same brand of laptop computer use the same user-guide.

12. Hickey and Roberts, Tarnished Gold, page 43. Hickey and Roberts emphasize that it is not simply the symptoms that matter. Also important is the particular person in which those symptoms occur, where the particularities of that person have been determined by the complex interactions between that person’s genes and the environments in which those genes have been expressed over the person’s lifetime. In their discussion of this notion of “biochemical individuality”, Hickey and Roberts cite Williams, R., 1998 (1956), Biochemical Individuality: Basis for the Genetotrophic Concept, McGraw-Hill, New York.

13. In the words of Conant and Ashby “…the theorem says that the best regulator of a system is one which is a model of that system in the sense that the regulator’s actions are merely the system’s actions as seen through a mapping….” Conant and Ashby, 1970, pg. 96.

14. Hickey and Roberts refer to this ponderous, adjectival freight-train as the “EBM-mantra”; ibid, page 164.

15. Ibid, page 24. Hickey and Roberts attribute the term to Robinson, W.S., 1935, “Ecological correlations and the behavior of individuals,” Journal of the American Statistical Association, 30, 517-536.

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Read, ” The Magic of Reality” by Richard Dawkins.

Read my original post on the hydrogen oxygen. I never wrote that the oxygen or hydrogen was man made, only that by combining them you will make a molecule of water. The water in this case is man made. The oxygen and the hydrogen atoms were made inside stars, as was every atom in your body.

As for your ‘moon’ article, it is full of weasels words such as ‘may’ and ‘appear to be’. More unsupported nonsense.

God explains nothing. You are just replacing one mystery with another.

Ivor, please tell us in what particulars is the God explanation preferable to the Big Bang explanation? What does the God explanation explain that the Big Bang one doesn’t.
What is the evidence for the God explanation. What data does the God explanation explain better.

Oh and while you are about it please provide the evidence for the origin, or otherwise, of God.

Compare your God evidence with the evidence for the Big Bang.

The Dawkins book I mentioned earlier will be of great help to you.

Ivor wrote “…What you need is a 1 litre of a strong infusion of Tinvelly Senna and sent to bed with a chamber pot .. whether that will be sufficient to clean out all the shit which you are full of I cannot say but if still having problems repeat the dose….”

Surely an extremely dilute homeopathic nostrum will be far more effective and have me shitting bricks in no time.

Perhaps you would like to prove to yourself the stupididty of homeopathy by taking a massive dose of a homeopathic constipation remedy. Be sure that it is properly diluted, C30 should be real effective, and properly succussed. otherwise it might not work … ha ha ha.

Have a nice day.

Dawkins on the nature of reality ? Science is the last place I would go to get such information.

What is so special about him? Has he descended from the right hand of God to instruct all of us mere mortals, as to the prime points of Scientism .. is he an Arch Bishop or Bishop of the religion of Scientism?

Garry you talk nothing but shit. Science changes its mind more often than a Greek Athlete changes his Jock Strap .. in the meantime whilst waiting for the next change of mind because science was wrong again .. we have to listen to idiots like you proclaim science is right, when the nature of reality is no more than a half boiled potato.

You carry on like a fool about Homeopathy .. You have never tried it and as far as I can judge you are in the dunces class when it comes to understanding of the theory.

Single Atoms are extremely rare.. Atoms are found in pairs and called Molecules.

Explain to us all about the big bang shit and give everyone a belly laugh. For those that do not know The Big Bang hypothesis is sciences answer to God .. ROFLMAO

For some reason everything gathered in one place and there was a great big bang .. thereupon due to natural selection everything fell into place .. the great works of literature and poetry .. the great symphonies and all because of natural selection .. for anyone to believe science is to disappear down a black hole caused by the big bang.

Perhaps it should be the Big Bank because these idiot children with their toys are expensive to amuse.

Gary .. organic gardening and farming could use some quantities of the bull shit you spew .. or perhaps you may wish to found another church of scientism to enlighten us lesser mortals ?

The Great Garry Warry joins forces with the Great Randy Pandy and pooh poos the effects of the moon.

After reading a summary .. And Single handed, this prime Kiwi Dork has wiped the Polish Academy of Sciences from the face of the Earth. Whilst trying to deny the effects of the moon on the realm of nature (scroll back along the thread)

The lunar cycle: effects on human and animal behavior and physiology

Michał Zimecki

Department of Experimental Therapy, The Institute of Immunology and Experimental Therapy, Polish Academy of Sciences, Wrocław, Poland

More on science bullshit. Seems they do quite well without Garry.

(NaturalNews) Clinical trials of drugs and other medical therapies are carefully carried out and are the very gold standard of scientific proof, right? According to an in-depth review of this question just published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ,) the answer is no. In fact, the BMJ is sounding the alarm that data reported by scientists is too often not the truth — because the researchers leave out inconvenient evidence. The result of facts-gone-missing could well be harming patients, spiking up healthcare costs by the selling of medical treatments based on bogus findings, and threatening the very integrity of medicine.

These warnings come from multiple papers released by the BMJ. The whistle-blowing authors of these articles examined the extent, causes, consequences of hidden facts, figures, and other data scientists discover as they do human trials. It turns out this is no “once in a while” kind of problem, either. The BMJ claims a “large proportion of evidence from human trials is unreported, and much of what is reported is done so inadequately.”

In an editorial, Dr. Richard Lehman from the University of Oxford and BMJ Clinical Epidemiology Editor, Dr. Elizabeth Loder, nail the current state of medical research as a “culture of haphazard publication and incomplete data disclosure.” They call for full access to raw trial data to allow better understanding of the benefits and harms of many treatments.

Bottom line: when data is left out, the missing facts distort the scientific record and published results of a study. This then leads doctors to make potentially dangerous clinical decisions about what drugs or procedures patients need because the docs are relying on skewed and even bogus “evidence.”

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034577_quack_science_clinical_trials_BMJ.html#ixzz1iZiKKURf

A prime example of your previous rant Ivor is (ex) doctor Wakefield.
See this from the British Journal of Medicine….
“…
“Science is at once the most questioning and . . . sceptical of activities and also the most trusting,” said Arnold Relman, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, in 1989. “It is intensely sceptical about the possibility of error, but totally trusting about the possibility of fraud.”1 Never has this been truer than of the 1998 Lancet paper that implied a link between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and a “new syndrome” of autism and bowel disease.
Authored by Andrew Wakefield and 12 others, the paper’s scientific limitations were clear when it appeared in 1998.2 3 As the ensuing vaccine scare took off, critics quickly pointed out that the paper was a small case series with no controls, linked three common conditions, and relied on parental recall and beliefs.4 Over the following decade, epidemiological studies consistently found no evidence of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.5 6 7 8 By the time the paper was finally retracted 12 years later,9 after forensic dissection at the General Medical Council’s (GMC) longest ever fitness to practise hearing,10 few people could deny that it was fatally flawed both scientifically and ethically. But it has taken the diligent scepticism of one man, standing outside medicine and science, to show that the paper was in fact an elaborate fraud.”
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452

As you are so against science and its products perhaps you might like to respond to the above without using any of the products of science. Please use your spiritual device developed by faith in your church to reply. Good luck with that.
Hey, read a book. Learn how evolution happened.

Science has yet to discover the cause of the big bang and readily admits it. You are so arrogant as to claim to know the cause ( but you fail to produce a scrap of evidence).
Ah, faith is a wonderful delusion is it not.

Garry you are a liar and a fraud .. the cut and paste of the Dr Wakefield article had a correction to it, i.e.

Correction
Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent
BMJ 2011; 342 doi: 10.1136/bmj.d1678 (Published 15 March 2011)
Cite this as: BMJ 2011;342:d1678

Correction to Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent

The BMJ should have declared competing interests in relation to this editorial by Fiona Godlee and colleagues (BMJ 2011;342:c7452, doi:10.1136/bmj.c7452). The BMJ Group receives advertising and sponsorship revenue from vaccine manufacturers, and specifically from Merck and GSK, which both manufacture MMR vaccines. For further information see the rapid response from Godlee (www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1335.full/reply#bmj_el_251470). The same omission also affected two related Editor’s Choice articles (BMJ 2011;342:d22 and BMJ 2011;342:d378).

When the ungodly Godlee was asked why she had not declared the BMJ vested interest she tried to brush it off by saying that it never occured to her and yet the vested interest was one of the charges levelled at Dr Wakefield.

Dr Wakefield has been vindicated by his peers and as for that shitty little Journalist called Deere, the BMJ let him have the confidential records of the patients involved. Hardly ethical!

Why did they go so hard to protect this dangerous vaccine ? Kaching Kaching went the cash till .. these people are an absolute disgrace .. now for another example of your blatant and continuous lies in this thread.
=============================

As you are so against science and its products perhaps you might like to respond to the above without using any of the products of science. Please use your spiritual device developed by faith in your church to reply. Good luck with that.
Hey, read a book. Learn how evolution happened.

Science has yet to discover the cause of the big bang and readily admits it. You are so arrogant as to claim to know the cause ( but you fail to produce a scrap of evidence).
Ah, faith is a wonderful delusion is it not.

===============================

I have never claimed to be a member of a church so where did you get that from?

A lot of so called science relies on faith and I will be posting a fair few articles to show scientific faith in action .. and remember the so called Gold Standard, Statistical Analysis has turned out to be another crock.

It does not seem to matter how many thousands die and how many are deliberately abused by this so called science. In supporting this scientific fraud you are in the company of thoroughly evil people.
Mary Shelley had it right as the author of Dr Frankenstein.

And as for the big bang .. how does science know there was a big bang? So dont lecture me about faith. You unmitigated cretin .. you alone have probably put many people against science with the constant blah blah hee haw .. science hee haw .. like I have previously said about the constant change of scientific mind and in the meantime whilst waiting I have to listen to your science is correct blah blah.

Your so called Gold Standard is a prime example of a straw man logical fallacy. Look it up.
I am pleased to see that you actually go to the links I provide and even do the required follow up. Well done on the BMJ article. Pity you haven’t paid as much attention to the links to explanations of evolution.
I won’t bother giving you links to explanations of how we know there was a big bang … Look it up yourself. Search for microwave background radiation as a starter.
How do you know the universe was created by a spirit creature?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation#Relationship_to_the_Big_Bang

Just to get you started … Looking forward to your evidence .
Ha ha

How exactly does your “creation theory” explain the cosmic background radiation Ivor?

Garry .. straw man? Check back on the thread .. Your beloved Scientists crapped on your gold standard of statistical analysis by cheating and lies.

It appears to me that any discussion has to be carried out by science made rules, whereby anecdotal evidence is not permissible unless it comes from a scientist, then it is permissible, anything that science has to say is absolutely correct until they change their mind again, and they change their mind so often that you have some difficulty in keeping up. Do you not Garry?

Garry you continually try to put words into my mouth because I never used the term spirit creature that is your fevered imagination at work again.

How does the background radiation support the big bang theory ?? The infinitesimal distances involved in the Universe restrict science to what can be considered as near space in relation to the earth, and the more pix that Hubble transmits back to earth, the greater the mystery grows.

Radiation is a frequency, and everything that we know of in our neighborhood part of space, has a frequency. Think of swinging a dial on a radio.

According to Mach,s principle everything in our solar system is spaced at certain intervals. Does anyone remember Gustav Holtz and his symphony ‘The Planets’? The music of the spheres. As far as we are able to ascertain it would appear that the same principle applies to other bodies in our own Galaxy and remember that the Galaxies have not been counted, because there are too many, and we cannot see to the end of the universe because of the vast distances involved. We only have a scanty knowledge of our own solar system, and yet these people have come up with an explanation for it all.

It would appear that after the scientific big bang every thing fell into place naturally and at spaced intervals .. well let me tell you that when a tank or a petrol bowser explodes, the debris does not fall at spaced intervals it falls at random .. but then lets not to spoil a good scientific yarn ..

After the big bang .. a monkey climbed into a scrap yard and built a grand piano and composed a symphony .. this of course all by natural selection.

Science also makes the claim that it can date things .. the favorite is the Carbon Dating method whereby the so called half life Carbon 14 is the point of reference for the scientific numerology .. oh woe oh woe .. the method has proved to be inaccurate .. however not to worry we will sweep it under the carpet and hope no one notices the smell.

Well done on the BMJ article ?? You patronizing little turd .. your beloved science was caught cooking the books. The Dripping needle brigade have killed and deformed millions .. so why would they do that? how inconvenient of Dr Godlee to be guilty of the very thing that they were accusing Dr Wakefield of (vested interest), when she was finally hauled up, and wait for this .. her reply was .. “it did not occur to us to mention it” ..

BMJ was accepting money from Pharmageddon and in particular 3 manufacturers of the vaccine in question .. why would they do that Garry ?

So what about this big bang theory .. why did it occur and what caused it. Naah! you guys are clutching at a soggy broken reed over which they mumble their numerology incantations.

This question of God and of course faith which simply means loyalty or allegiance to a cause or person .. is a description which also fits the religion of science.

There are other ways of seeing things and experiencing things which appear to be beyond your ken,
it is almost as though you suffered a brain injury and insanity .. the very thing that you accuse the faith holders of .. how on earth are we supposed to believe half a man? You are half a man Garry, because you are lacking some of the essentials of being human.

Garry I will leave you a little meat ..

But before you start .. I do not belong to a church of any kind I am eclectic .. one of my teachers said to me .. you should be able to walk into any place of worship irrespective of religion by remembering what you are there for,e.g. to pray to God.

A Bibical explanation which sounds so much better than an almighty bang.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1.1

Sound is a vibration so let me update John 1.1 in the modern sense.

In the beginning was the Vibration, and the Vibration was with God, and the Vibration was God.

That is my personal concept of God, but one thing is for sure I understand that I do not understand .. the purpose of the Great Mystery, but then neither does science with its ridiculous big bang .. it sounds like you guys walked into a wall and got a big bang.

Let us now watch as Garry uses some scientific weasel words for example .. Creationism .. that is the term which is used to denigrate most of the worlds religions.

When these scientific people were forced to deal with the concept of ‘intelligent design. they used the weasel word creationism meaning the Biblical explanation .. is it so unreasonable when looking at the beauty of the world to consider that it was made by some kind of Cosmic Architect ? .. as a concept .. intelligent design is a most excellent description .. it stands alone needing no further speculation .. One understands instinctively why it would irk Garry ..

Wrong again Ivor. History shows that the term ‘ creationism’ was used by Darwin, hardly recent. Read on and learn that ID is the more recent weasle word used by creationists to try and give their religious views a ‘scientific’ sounding name so as to make it easier to get taught in science classes.

“The history of creationism is part of the history of religions, though the term itself is modern. In the 1920s the term became particularly associated with Christian fundamentalist movements that insisted on a literalist interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative and likewise opposed the idea of human evolution. These groups succeeded in getting teaching of evolution banned in United States public schools, then from the mid-1960s the young Earth creationists promoted the teaching of “scientific creationism” using “Flood geology” in public school science classes as support for a purely literal reading of Genesis.[25] After the legal judgment of the case Daniel v. Waters (1975) ruled that teaching creationism in public schools contravened the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, the content was stripped of overt biblical references and renamed creation science. When the court case Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) ruled that creation science similarly contravened the constitution, all references to “creation” in a draft school textbook were changed to refer to intelligent design, which was subsequently claimed to be a new scientific theory. The Kitzmiller v. Dover (2005) ruling concluded that intelligent design is not science and contravenes the constitutional restriction on teaching religion in public school science classes.[26]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

I am sure you agree with me Ivor, that ID should not be taught in science classes as it is clearly based on religious teaching and has no credibility as a science. I am sure you would not want ID identified with the evil, godless science you so despise.

PS You still don’t seem to have grasped the simple concept of evolution by natural selection… The following link may help you rise out of the slime of ignorance you are mired in.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIENaturalSelection.shtml

Garry .. I have not bothered to check on the Wikipedia article, I will accept your cut and paste as the scientific side of the story.

It is irrelevant and a minor part of my previous post, which I note you have chosen to ignore. I do not accept that a monkey jumped into a junk yard theory and that is why the descriptive Intelligent Design appeals to me. I do not accept the nonsense of natural selection because it is Eugenics in disguise.

During the late 19th century and the turn of the 20th some rather nasty and bitter battles were fought between the newly founded church of scientism and the British Ecclesiastics. Not without some irreparable harm being done to both sides. However the Church of Scientism backed itself into some corners that were reminiscent of the Great Phlogiston Intellectual Disaster of the Church of Scientism.

One of the more interesting corners was the denial of ‘Vitalism’ during which the human soul was plucked from us all and consigned to the fiery pit. Thereafter we were all left bereft and Godless.

No longer did we have a moral compass to guide us individually in the world .. the Code of Hammurabi was no longer extant but consigned to the same fiery pit, so we end up with lies and chicanery and Human Sacrifice by this new Church, and one of its arch bishops the Godless Godlee (Editor of the BMJ)Brushing over many thousands of deaths and maiming,s as she prostrated herself in the shrine of Mammon and Pharmageddon. There is no morality there, no respect for human life, or even concern for those that have been sacrificed on the bloody altar of science.

This came about from the denial of Vitalism or the ‘Vital Spark’ .. which I know for sure exists .. as a member of HMF I have seen and recovered a few dead bodies and those that met the violent end always had their eyes open. I looked into the eyes of my living comrades and then again at the eyes of the dead bodies… something had gone out Gary .. something had left and what had left was a kind of light, a soul if you wish .. As a consequence I am a vitalist.

Now you Garry are a part of all of this nonsense of trying to control what people think, which is cheapened and thrown away as anecdotal and this at the expense of the peoples life’s experience.

Today we have a tyranny of science where millions are consigned to what is unspeakable on the say so of those advisers of governments and when wedded to blunt legal instruments .. then the social skull is cracked and trepanned. The results are clearly visible, we are awash with toxins,huge wastelands of failed applied science, and great armies of medical slaves held fast by chemical bonds. Our corporate food is systemically polluted with toxic chemicals .. every thing they touch is wrecked. I will finish here with a repeat of the words of Prof Virchow.

On the other hand, it seemed to him high time to utter an energetic protest against the attempts that are made to proclaim the problems of research as actual facts, the opinions of scientists as established science, and thereby to set in a false light, before the eyes of the less informed masses, not merely the methods of science, but also its whole position in regard to the intellectual life of men and nations. Let us hope that men of science in England also will not fail to examine this most serious question, whether the authority of Science will not be better secured, if it confines itself strictly to its own province, than if it undertakes to master the whole view of nature by the premature generalizing of theoretical combinations

RUD. VIRCHOW. Berlin, February 11th 1878

So, you believe in a, so far, undetected ‘life force’ because dead eyes look different to live eyes. Quite a leap of faith there Ivor.

Evolution by natural selection actually happened. Whether you approve of it or not on moral grounds does not change the fact that it happened and is still happening. It is the way life works. You can cry about the slow antelopes being torn apart and eaten alive by big cats but it still happens every day. This is how things are. Obviously an intelligent designer with any decency would have made a far less terrible world, but we are stuck with the unpalatable fact of evolution by natural selection as the only explanation that accounts for what we see happening in the real world.

“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars. (Charles Darwin)”

I have not responded to your pseudo scientific vibration mumbo jumbo because to respond intelligibly requires something intelligible to respond to. You seem to have a very confused grasp on reality which I guess was caused by a poor education in basic science and/or too many drugs in the 60′s.

Gary .. There are quite obvious differences between the living and the dead .. Yes?

It was quite obvious to me that something had left the body, what does science have to say about this observable phenomenon ?

As a working class child in an English slum, the secondary schools did not teach science they taught Domestic Science, pottery, metal work and wood work, as befits a working class school in the slums.

Each of those schools were awarded one scholarship per annum which was to a Grammar School, that gateway to University. 42 kids to a class and 11 stepped classes.

With the aid of text books borrowed from the public library I taught myself Physics, the foundation of science. From there I went into Pharmacognosy and then into Pharmaceutical Chemistry and then some Anatomy and Physiology.

To be honest I was shocked at what I found given the scientific propaganda of the day. Physiology was and still is, just a cobweb, it is full of holes. When it comes to child birth the explanations are an absolute disgrace which explains nothing.

The major problem for science is not that it is lacking in intellectual power, is that the scientist when trying to explain natural phenomena, is hobbled as to what they can say, and how it must be said. The rule book Garry. In amongst themselves they fight like cats and dogs and then try to present a unified front to the people who they leech off.

Virchow,s words again Garry ..

“, whether the authority of Science will not be better secured, if it confines itself strictly to its own province, than if it undertakes to master the whole view of nature by the premature generalizing of theoretical combinations”

I have no problems about the saying ‘Nature, red in tooth and claw’ .. I am well aware that this whole phantasmagoria is life eating life. If you want to continue to believe that your ancestors were monkeys that jumped into a scrap yard then that is fine.

You talk about this Eugenics thing as though it were slam dunk proven when obviously it is not .. If it appears to you as truth handed down from on high then I must remind you once again of the Phlogiston Theory that was an accepted truth, science was all into it and some of the foremost scientists of the day such a Priestly and Scheele all contributed to the unmasking of these intellectual snobs, the ‘wunderkind’.

And talking of drugs garry .. this man spent most of his life on drugs and it shows .. just read this interview and what this man has to say about the future of the human race .. I am not very impressed!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/stephen-hawking/8996654/Prof-Stephen-Hawking-man-faces-nuclear-armageddon-and-must-colonise-space.html

You are talking of education garry, so tell me what are your scientific credentials ? What you remind me of is a Laboratory Technician with ideas above his station. one who seems to be incapable of thinking for oneself and questioning some of these scientific pronouncements.

In fact if I had to mark some of your papers .. 3/10.

This should make garry boy froth and foam at the mouth .. ROFL

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083279/Psychic-powers-How-thought-premonitions-telepathy-common-think.html

The Phlogiston Theory was accepted as the best explanation given the knowledge available at the time. The great thing about science is that it doesn’t claim to know the absolute truth and scientists are constantly trying to find fault with the current theories. Science eventually found out that phlogiston was not the best way to explain the results of later experiments. Science does not sit on its arse being satisfied by feeble explanations such as ‘ God did it’ . Science progresses by testing current theories mercilessly and modifying or replacing theories which don’t match the observed world.
As I suspected, you have not had the advantage of good teachers in the sciences so I must excuse your ignorance and confusion.
By the way, the differences between the appearances of dead eyes and live eyes can be explained without the need to postulate a ‘life force’.

Head off to the following link for some more self education…
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIENaturalSelection.shtml

Cut the bullshit Garry boy, what are your scientific qualifications that you can and insist you are right ?

You have read a little of Dawkin the Dawk and Hawking .. thats the strength of it eh gary boy ? ..

Cut the crap and explain to me the difference between dead and live eyes … I do not expect you will find that on Wickipedia you are just a link paster and a champion cut and paster .. Natural selection AKA Eugenics seems to have passed you by.

And you wrap yourself in tangles first you tell me that science is always moving on .. and then we have to listen to you blathering on that science is always right .. well which is it .. Science is never wrong .. or science is never right??

Natural selection is like the Piltdown Skull .. another scientific fraud.

Science never says, ” this is the absolute truth”. That is what religion does. Science say ” this is the best explanation we have at present .”. And then try’s hard to prove that explanation wrong. Nobel prizes are not won by scientists just agreeing with the current knowledge.

Evolution by natural selection is the best explanation for the variety of life so far. Learn how it works here … http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIENaturalSelection.shtml

Garry .. so science is never right yet according to you we must all believe science.

Nobel Prize and Science ? oh yeah lol the guy that put the money up made it from Dynamite .. it is a blood stained award.

Do you remember the Scientist who soiled his nappies in public by throwing a tantrum because he did not win the prize when he thought he should? What a dork !

Natural selection is just another name for Eugenics and although it may make sense to you that does not make it correct, factually or morally .. We are human beings Garry not evolved monkeys so the Moral dimension is most important for us if we wish to survive.

Now for the 2nd time exactly what are your scientific qualifications?
I am sure we would all be interested to know because you make out that you are the resident egg head round here, do you remember saying how you had hoped to teach people some sense here?

What are your qualifications that allows you to say that? Or have you been scamming people ? which I must admit appears to be scientific behaviour.

Whilst I remember tell us all the difference between dead eyes and live eyes .. but like I said you will not find that on Wikipedia. So come on Garry instruct us all!

The damage caused by Fukushima in terms of human deaths and still born children is virtually now World Wide .. I received the following in my mail box about the matter .. and what the article has to say is a real eye opener and cannot be refuted as to the Physics of the matter. Like buildings collapsing etc from a supposed earthquake.

——– Original Message ——–
Subject: Fukushima: The Asian 911
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:52:57 -0500
From:
To: “Undisclosed Recipients”

http://jinnwe.com/quest.php?id=419

Now Garry boy has been very close lipped about his education and scientific qualifications .. but I wonder what the boy wonder will make of the article at the end of the link .. because it has very dangerous health implications for everyone .. even scientists.

The link from the website did not work .. here is the link ..

http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/

and before garry warry and the great randy pandy start screaming conspiracy theories let us all remember that the biggest conspiracy theory of all is what the Gov and other Vested interests tell us.

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/01/how-flu-shots-make-you-prone-to-disease.html

Evolution by natural selection actually happened. Whether you approve of it or not on moral grounds does not change the fact that it happened and is still happening. It is the way life works. You can cry about the slow antelopes being torn apart and eaten alive by big cats but it still happens every day. This is how things are. Obviously an intelligent designer with any decency would have made a far less terrible world, but we are stuck with the unpalatable fact of evolution by natural selection as the only explanation that accounts for what we see happening in the real world.
Sorry for repeating myself but it seemed you didn’t read this before.
As for my science education, let’s just say that it is more comprehensive than yours having been provided by the New Zealand primary, secondary and university system rather than just reading some books in the library.

Bilbo, you are right when you claim that flu shots do not prevent you getting the flu. The flu shot primes your immune system so that it is ready to respond to the infection so quickly that your immune system deals to the infection before it has a chance to cause you any major symptoms.

Where do your morals come from Ivor?
We’re they handed to you on tablets of stone?
Did you make them up as you went along?

Where do your morals come from Ivor?
Were they handed to you on tablets of stone?
Did you make them up as you went along?

Well Garry I do not believe you, and if you actually made it to Uni then it was some kind of soft subject .. perhaps knitting.

Yes you have repeated yourself a number of times and I have already acknowledged nature is red in tooth and claw. And that all of this physical phantasmagoria is life eating life.

We are something more than a monkey tinkering in a scrap yard and the moral questions are extremely important to us and especially to our children and grandchildren unless of course one thinks one is nuturing the Universal Soldier.

Natural Selection is just the weasel words for Eugenics and no amount of humming and haaing can change that .. further it explains absolutely nothing of benefit to the human race. You may insist all you like but that does not make a fact .. there is no proof only scientific conjecture. Plus there are a myriad other ways of seeing what is happening .. but I appreciate that one track minds have difficulty with that.

Oh btw I never said anything about slow antelopes where did you get that from?

Tablets of Stone .. Rofl what a dick head you are.

You are not a monkey. You share a common ancestor with a monkey. Go and learn about evolution. Links have been provided previously.

There is ample proof … you just have to open your mind. And read some more books from the library. Anything by Dawkins should be OK for you. ” Unweaving The Magic of Reality ” is a good one for you to start with.

But really, where do you think your morals came from? I am curious. I promise not to make fun of your answer.

History of this article:

This article was an ambush, and took off like crazy. It got translated to many different languages and ended up getting 300 million reads. It got the Elite’s attention, which could be why they snuffed the Fukushima article so fast. Tainted nightmare rose such a stir in the Muslim world that the President of Egypt made an official statement regarding the article – “there must be a reason why they are having you sign an agreement not to sue once you take it” and at least one major medical organization in the Middle East issued it as their formal position. This article forced a reformulation of the swine flu vaccine to a non damaging mix. At its peak, it shut out the first 4,500 hits on google, it was THAT widely distributed. I saved the google results only after it had been whittled down to the first 1,800 hits (total shutout) a year later. Read on to see why it went wild.

Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 3:58 AM

Tainted nightmare

Dr. Sarah Stone, Pharm-D

Jim Stone, Freelance Journalist

Russ Clarke, Editor

For the article Enter Rfid 2010 click here

“The H1N1 vaccination program, when put into the same frame as the engineered virus to go with it, appears to be a clear effort to divide humanity into two groups; those who have lost their intellect, health and sexuality via a tainted vaccination, and those who have not and are therefore superior.”

I met the story about the swine flu with great skepticism; it played like a story line in a B movie – Students go abroad for spring break. Students get the virus. Students bring it home. Worldwide pandemic starts. The story line was unbelievable, and I knew from day one that there was either no virus at all, and that it was just a “wag the dog”, or that a manufactured outbreak was intentionally released and underway.

Unfortunately the latter was true, and now we have an entirely new bug on our hands. It has never been seen before, and virologists have been quoted saying “where the hell it got all these genes from we don’t know.” Extensive analysis of the virus has revealed genes from the original 1918 flu, the avian flu, and two new H3N2 viruses from Eurasia. All evidence points to the fact that the swine flu is indeed a genetically engineered virus.

This article is the result of a team effort intended to explore what the motive for releasing it may be, to warn you in advance of things to come.

The first attempt

In Feb 2009, Baxter, a major manufacturer of vaccines, sent the seasonal flu shot to 18 different countries with live unattenuated H5N1 bird flu. When the Czech company Biotest was assigned to test the vaccine on live animals for the Czech government, they realized something was wrong when the test animals died. The alarm went out to all others who had received it, fortunately before it was administered. Upon follow up examination of the vaccine the live virus was revealed, had no one caught Baxter’s tainted batch, we would now be in the midst of a pandemic with massive numbers of dead.

Baxter was not prosecuted or punished in any way for this, even though their operational BSL3 (bio safety level 3) protocol would have stopped such contamination from being possible. The safety protocol, combined with the potency and volume of the virus in the shots clearly shows that the contamination was intentional, and that indeed an attempt to kill millions was stopped simply because ONE country paid attention to what it was getting. The protocol made it technically impossible for the virus to make the leap from the research department to the vaccine manufacturing department, which could never have had H5N1 show up there due to any reason other than willful intent.

One would think that Baxter would have been put out of business for making such an “error” but the opposite is true, which begs many questions, such as how did the live bird flu end up in millions of doses of vaccine? Why were the ingredients of the vaccine formulated to allow the virus to survive fully potent en route? Why was Baxter not prosecuted or punished in any way? Instead of rightfully blackballing the company, the World Health Organization has rewarded Baxter with a contract to make a large portion of the “Swine flu” vaccinations set to be distributed world wide this fall. How on earth could that be?

The main focus

Let’s switch to another aspect of vaccines, the real focus of this article, which is the plan to destroy our intellect, our health and our sexuality via a mass world wide vaccination campaign. With the use of special additives called adjuvants, manufacturers are able to increase the number of possible doses that can be made on time for the fall flu season. But though there are many safe adjuvants which can be added, they are adding one – squalene, which has been shown to cause prolonged systemic immune response against the squalene itself, which results in reduced fertility, reduced intellect and reduced life span.

Squalene is an important molecule in the body. It is a precursor to many different oils and hormones, and is needed for proper brain function, fertility and also plays an important role in protecting cells from aging and mutation. Anything which affects your natural squalene can have a major negative impact on your health.

Because the squalene will be injected in the presence of a pathogen during the H1N1 vaccination, it will cause an immune response against not only the pathogen, but to the squalene itself. Squalene is a precursor molecule which is essential for the production of many hormones including all of the male and female sexual hormones. Squalene is also a precursor to many of the neurochemical receptors prevalent in the nervous system and when the immune system is programmed to attack squalene, it causes irreversible neuronal and neuromuscular damage which can range from a loss of intellect and autism to more serious disorders such as Lou Gehrig’s disease and systemic autoimmune diseases and possibly brain tumors.

In independent studies where squalene laced vaccines were injected into guinea pigs, the resultant autoimmune disorders killed 14 out of 15. A later test, to verify the results had the same outcome.

When first injected via the anthrax vaccine in Gulf War 1, it permanently disabled many of the soldiers who received it, due to the effects now known as the Gulf War Syndrome. 95 percent of the soldiers who recieved the anthrax vaccine have been found to have antibodies to squalene. Few of the soldiers who recieved the vaccine remained healthy and do not have the antibodies whether or not they were deployed. None of the soldiers who did not receive the vaccine have the antibodies, even those who fought in Iraq. Squalene antibody related deaths total 6.5 percent of the vaccinated group.

It takes approximately a year for the effects to fully manifest themselves because that much time passes before the nervous system and brain deplete the reserves of Squalene that are out of the reach of the immune system and only after the reserves are gone will cell injury begin. This takes the pressure off vaccine manufacturers who deny any wrongdoing for a response so delayed. And with Congress passing legislation granting immunity to any corporations who cause damage with their vaccines, the outlook is evermore dark.

After examining the components of the H1N1 flu vaccine we can only conclude that it is not intended to treat the flu at all, quite differently, it is intended to:

1. Reduce intelligence
2. Reduce life span
3. Reduce fertility
4. Cause numerous deaths

For if it was intended for any other purpose, Squalene and other adjuvants beyond the scope of this article would not be present. Furthermore, the scope of this article only covers squalene, and we believe that because there are so many ways to induce autoimmune responses equally devastating via other injectable formulations coupled with the obviously intentional shipment of a pandemic by Baxter that the credibility of vaccines is forever tainted and the trust in the greater medical community may have been irreparably broken. Baxter should be out of business, the fact that they are not is damning.

The trust is broken

Through a manufactured pandemic and damaging vaccine the world health organization along with major manufacturers in the pharmaceutical industry have demonstrated clear intent to damage all of mankind. For what purpose is difficult to determine, but it would be safe to assume that there will be those who have been told and know better than to take one of these tainted vaccines, and as a result they will be of superior intelligence and health when put in perspective with those who receive them. The H1N1 vaccination program, when put into the same frame as the obviously engineered virus to go with it, appears to be a clear effort to divide humanity into two groups, those who have lost their intellect, health and sexuality via a tainted vaccination, and those who have not and are therefore superior. It can now be reasoned that it is no longer safe to take ANY vaccination for any reason; please, do not let them get your children.

If you ever see a video of major figures getting theirs, keep in mind that not all shots will be created equal!

References

The most valuable reference for this article by far was Dr. Sarah Stone, Pharm-D. Thank you so much, you helped sort fact from fiction and made this article possible

Newsmax.com “Vaccine May Be More Dangerous Than Swine Flu”

Mercola.com “Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret Exposed”

Chiroweb.com “Vaccines May Be Linked to Gulf War Syndrome”

The Unify Coalition “Experimental Vaccines / Adjuvants / Squalene:”

Garry .. your reply to Bilbo,s post was an absolute load of nonsense. Flu Vaccines do not prime the immune system. They give people the Flu .. they go directly into the blood stream bypassing all of the immune systems in the body.

Garry .. Evolution, there is no proof, only scientific speculation .. How many years have they been looking for the missing link ? Have they found it yet ?

Scientific Evolution is another phlogiston theory. Just like natural selection which is Eugenics in disguise. Jas pointed out to us about Darwin,s strange habits when it came to breeding ..

Morals ? it sounds as though you do not have any .. do you ? I promise not to poke fun at your answer.

Could you point out which type of monkey is our ancestor ? or rather your ancestor because I do not believe the monkey story either.

Ivor, your last two posts were nice concise demonstrations of your ignorance about science, vaccination and evolution.
Below are some links that will help you in your life long education process. Enjoy.

Evolution ….
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml
( or Dawkins books on the subject.)

Vaccination …
http://www.iavireport.org/vax-primers/scienceofAIDSvaccines/Pages/VAX-primer-immune-system-I.aspx

Science …
http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/howscienceworks_01

With light poise and counterpoise nature oscillates within her prescribed limits , yet thus arise all the varieties and conditions of the phenomena which are presented to us in space and time.
Goethe

the authority of Science will not be better secured, if it confines itself strictly to its own province, than if it undertakes to master the whole view of nature by the premature generalizing of theoretical combinations
Virchow

Science oh science, what a fine feathered bird, it flies around in ever decreasing circles until it disappears up its own arse.
Ivor

Most people who profess to be scientists are not, because they work for someone else. Virchow spoke the truth .. he had you lot of hot air merchants measured up. It seems to be a peculiarity of the breed.

You try to denigrate my education but I know that it was far better than yours because of your perceived shallowness and inability to visualize anything that lies beyond the door .. Open it just a crack and peer through with your cyclops eye .. the anti-depressants that you are taking will shield your mind.

Dawkin is on the same level as Hawkinge and if those are the people from which you take your cue, then say no more. Your blind faith in science is pitiful.

premature generalizing of theoretical combinations.

Everything that science does has a backlash .. just look at the mess of our food chain .. pesticides over everything pesticides in our streams and rivers and traces in the drinking water. 1080 dropped in pristine country.

The 1080 that is dropped on some of the Hauraki Gulf Islands has killed of penguins and other sea birds not to mention fish as it is washed into the sea by rain. Auckland beaches closed and pet dogs poisoned .. they told us to stay off the beaches but said that they did not know the cause .. Oh really ?

I strongly suspect that we already have GM in the country .. the contamination of the sweet corn from hidden away little patches around NZ ,, there was one hidden in the bush by the bombing range in the Kaipara .. wind spreads the pollen .. Japan reported GM yeast in imported dough from NZ.

It goes on and on Garry .. smashed the species barrier with the vaccination scam. Everything ruineda and from that point where science is bleeding us dry and University Patents over some very weird organisms .. we have to cope with climate change.

We have some really big problems and science is part of the problem so your continual support for these strange people is reprehensible ..

But with a bit of luck you will reach your destination by your flight of ever decreasing circles.

I understand the language of science Garry boy .. and when they drop a heap of bull shit I can see it, smell it, taste it .. A bunch of Anal Cretins. If people like you think you are going to win any hearts and minds for science forget it .. Science has failed .. if they had not then they would not need to lie and cheat.

gary
“flu shots do not prevent you getting the flu. The flu shot primes your immune system so that it is ready to respond to the infection so quickly that your immune system deals to the infection before it has a chance to cause you any major symptoms.”
got any proof of that?

Just to recap from an earlier post:

According to the Cochrane review last year:
“Influenza vaccines have a modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost. There is no evidence that they affect complications, such as pneumonia, or transmission.

WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines.

The review demonstrated that reliable scientific evidence confirming that influenza vaccines are effective is thin and there is plenty of reason to suspect that there may be a manipulation of conclusions when the studies are funded by drug companies. The content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding.”

Ivor, I understand the language of new-age, rhymes with sewage and smells the same.

When you have thoroughly explored the links I provided you will be in a better position to comment on science. Until then you really should stop spouting sewage.

Jab me, yes.

Bilbo,
“Vaccination of school-age children has a strong protective effect on the adults and elderly with whom the children are in contact.[24] Children born to mothers who received flu vaccination while pregnant are strongly protected from having to be hospitalized with the flu. “The effectiveness of influenza vaccine given to mothers during pregnancy in preventing hospitalization among their infants, adjusted for potential confounders, was 91.5%.”[25]
Healthy, working adults who received influenza vaccine reported 25 percent fewer episodes of upper respiratory illness than those who received the placebo (105 vs. 140 episodes per 100 subjects, P < 0.001), 43 percent fewer days of sick leave from work due to upper respiratory illness (70 vs. 122 days per 100 subjects, P = 0.001), and 44 percent fewer visits to physicians' offices for upper respiratory illnesses (31 vs. 55 visits per 100 subjects, P = 0.004). The study, reported in the NEJM, estimated cost savings at $46.85 per person vaccinated, and concluded that "Vaccination against influenza has substantial health-related and economic benefits for healthy, working adults."[26]
Influenza vaccination has been shown highly effective in health care workers, with minimal adverse effects. In a study of forty matched nursing homes, staff influenza vaccination rates were 69.9% in the vaccination arm versus 31.8% in the control arm. The vaccinated staff experienced a 42% reduction in sick leave from work (P=.03).[27] A review of eighteen studies likewise found a strong net benefit to health care workers.[28] The two of these eighteen studies that assessed the relationship of patient mortality relative to staff influenza vaccine uptake both found that higher rates of health care worker vaccination correlated with reduced patient deaths.[28] An analysis of data and patient population health in New Mexico's 75 long-term care facilities nursing homes found that as vaccination rates of health care personnel with direct patient contact rose from 51 to 75 percent, the chances of a flu outbreak among patients in that facility went down by 87 percent. The New Mexico study showed that vaccinating health care personnel provided more protection to residents than vaccinating the residents themselves.[29]"

Some young victims of the scientific bull shit ..

GlaxoSmithKline Fined Over Illegal Vaccine Experiments Killing 14 Babies
Anthony Gucciardi
Activist Post

Vaccine and drug giant GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) has been fined 400,000 pesos (around the equivalent of $93,000) by an Argentinian judge for killing 14 babies during illegal lab vaccine trials that were conducted between 2007 and 2008.

In addition to killing the children and experimenting with human beings, the judge asserted that the corporation actually falsified parental authorizations so that babies could participate without legitimate parental permission.

Judge Marcelo Aguinsky made the decision after a report was released on the subject by the National Administration of Medicine, Food and Technology (ANMAT in Spanish). Since 2007, 15,000 children below the age of one from Mendoza, San Juan, and Santiago del Estero have been participating in the illegal research. These babies were recruited by GSK from poor families that attended public hospitals. It was found that of the 14 baby deaths, 7 died in Santiago del Estero; 5 in Mendoza; and 2 in San Juan.

GSK Recruited Doctors, Pressured Illiterate Parents into Signing Over Children

Currently, it is unknown how many babies suffered serious side effects, adverse reactions, or if this is truly the total death count. As with many other vaccinations such as Gardasil, the official death count continues to rise as leaked reports from the FDA and elsewhere continue to surface.

One pediatrician working at the public hospital when GSK began recruiting babies for their illegal human trials said that not only did GSK force illiterate parents into handing over their children, but they also ‘recruited’ several doctors working at the hospital into their cause.

Ana Marchese, a pediatrician at the Eva Perón children’s public hospital in Santiago del Estero, stated:

GSK Argentina set an protocol at the hospital, and recruited several doctors working there. These doctors took advantage of many illiterate parents whom take their children for treatment by pressuring and forcing them into signing these 28-page consent forms and getting them involved in the trials.

It is quite clear that GSK has zero regard for human health, morals, and will go to any length to experiment with their latest jab regardless of the casualties. Of the 15,000 babies that were reported to be a part of the illegal trials, many may suffer from life-altering illness and serious side effects.

Amazingly, many parents had no idea they were signing over the lives of their children to GSK, as they were completely illiterate. Meanwhile, GSK sells their latest shots and pharmaceutical drugs to United States consumers, raking in record profits each year as the second-largest drugmaker.

Researchers: Delay Breastfeeding to “Improve” Vaccination?
Post date:
Wed, January 4th 2012 at 7:0 pm by Sayer Ji

Over the course of the past few years we have been gathering studies from the US National Library of Medicine on the adverse, unintended health effects of vaccination, in an attempt to offset the one-sided propaganda foisted upon the public, namely, that all vaccines are unequivocally “safe” and “effective” a priori.

Along the way, we happened upon a 2010 study published in the Journal of Pediatric Infections & Diseases which has been shared more than any other article on our database, and which suggests that breastfeeding should be delayed in order to prevent immune factors within breast milk from inactivating vaccine-associated antibody titer elevations and “vaccine potency.” The concluded the study with the following statement:

“INTERPRETATION: The lower immunogenicity and efficacy of rotavirus vaccines in poor developing countries could be explained, in part, by higher titers of IgA and neutralizing activity in breast milk consumed by their infants at the time of immunization that could effectively reduce the potency of the vaccine. Strategies to overcome this negative effect, such as delaying breast-feeding at the time of immunization, should be evaluated.”

It is not difficult to comprehend what caused the flurry of interest in this study. Readers were obviously disturbed by the suggestion that women in the underdeveloped world temporarily stop breast feeding (often the only source of infant nutrition) in order to increase the vaccine’s purported “efficacy.” Are we to assume that these breast milk deprived infants should consume formula* in the interim? And to what end? So that the vaccine can generate a temporary spike in antibody production, which is no measure of real-world effectiveness?

*Note: Infant formula has been linked to 48 adverse effects, including increased mortality.

First, it should be made clear that the term “efficacy,” when used in the context of a vaccine’s antibody-elevating effects, does not equate to effectiveness, i.e. whether or not a vaccine actually works in real life to protect against the infectious agent of concern.

It is this semantic trick (conflating and confusing “efficacy” with “effectiveness”) which convinces most of the “developed” world that vaccine research is “evidence-based” and focused on creating enhanced immunity, when in fact it is primarily a highly successful business enterprise dependent on defrauding its “customers” of both their money and health. The dangers of common vaccines are so well known by “health experts,” and the manufacturers who produce, them that their risk (like nuclear power) is underwritten by world governments. The importance of this fact can not be overestimated or understated.

Introducing foreign pathogenic DNA, chemicals, metals, preservatives, etc., into the body through a syringe will generate a response not unlike kicking a bee hive. The harder you kick that beehive, the greater will be the “efficacy” (i.e. elevated antibodies), but the actual affinity that these antibodies will have for the antigen (i.e. pathogen) of concern, can not be guaranteed; nor must the vaccine reseachers prove antibody-antigen affinity to receive FDA approval.

Also, valuable immune resources are wasted by generating “false flag” responses to threats which may not readily exist in the environment, e.g. there are over 200 forms of influenza A, B & C which can cause the symptoms associated with annual influenza A, so the seasonal trivalent flu vaccine only takes care of little more than 1% of the possible vectors of infection – and often at the price of distracting resources away from real threats, as well as exhausting and/or damaging the entire immune apparatus. Truth be told, there is actually a shocking lack of evidence to support flu vaccines, in any age or population.

What’s worse, the vaccine response can “blow back” causing loss of self-tolerance and, via the resultant Th2 dominant immune system, the body can attack itself (auto-immunity). In the meantime, the first line of defense against infection (Th1) is compromised and this “front door” can be left wide open to unmet infectious challenges.

It is clear that one can create a synthetic immune response through vaccination, but it is not likely to result in enhanced immunity, insofar as real-world effectiveness is concerned, which is the only true judge of whether a vaccine is valuable or not. One might view the basic criteria used by vaccine researchers, namely, that generating elevated antibody titers proves the value of the vaccine, oppositely: proving the vaccine is causing harm to the developing infant by generating unnecessarily elevated antibodies by any means necessary, i.e. throwing the chemical and biological kitchen sink at the immune system, e.g. aluminum, phenol, diploid (aborted fetal) cells, peanut oil, pertactin, etc.

In the same way that secretory IgA from breast milk deactivates a broad range of “natural” antigenic challenges for the infant, this breast milk derived, indispensable immune factor also deactivates the inherently disruptive and immunotoxic antibody-generating vaccine antigens and adjuvants. Rather than view this as the “enemy,” the reduction in antibodies that accompanies a well-nourished breastfed infant’s blood work, after the highly invasive and unnatural introduction of a vaccine, is a sign of health, not disease.
This study struck a deep psychic chord out there. Images of phallic syringes stabbing away jealously at the symbolic breast of Nature come to mind, as the increasingly invasive ethos of modern medicine — always attempting to “improve on Nature” — drives us sick, mentally and physically. Can’t we just leave the timeless wisdom of mothering and nourishing that is woven into the mother-infant dyad alone?

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org

Medical conditions with positive balance of evidence in homeopathy
Systematic reviews and/or randomised controlled trials (rcts)

Brain injury
1. chapman eH, Weintraub RJ, Milburn MA, et al (1999). Homeopathic treatment of mild traumatic brain injury: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Journal of Head Trauma Rehabilitation; 14: 521–542. (RCT)

Bronchitis
2. Diefenbach M, Schilken J, Steiner G, Becker HJ (1997). Homöopathische Therapie bei Erkrankungen der Atemwege. Auswertung einer klinischen Studie bei 258 Patienten [Homeopathic therapy in respiratory tract diseases. Evaluation of a clinical study in 258 patients]. Zeitschrift für Allgemeinmedizin;
73:308–314. (RCT)

childhood diarrhoea
3. Jacobs J, Jonas WB, Jimenez-Perez M, Crothers D (2003). Homeopathy for childhood diarrhea: combined results and metaanalysis from three randomized, controlled clinical trials. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal; 22: 229–234. (Review)

4. Jacobs J, Jiminez LM, Gloyds SS, et al (1993). Homoeopathic treatment of acute childhood diarrhoea. A
randomized clinical trial in Nicaragua. British Homoeopathic Journal; 82:83–86. (RCT)

5. Jacobs J, Jimenez LM, Gloyds SS, et al (1994). Treatment of acute childhood diarrhea with homeopathic medicine; a randomized clinical trial in Nicaragua. Pediatrics; 93:719–725. (RCT)

6. Jacobs J, Jimenez LM, Malthouse S, et al (2000). Homeopathic treatment of acute childhood diarrhoea: results from a clinical trial in Nepal. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; 6:131–139. (RCT)

7. Jacobs J, Guthrie BL, Montes GA, et al (2006). Homeopathic combination remedy in the treatment of acute childhood diarrhea in Honduras. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; 12:723–732. (RCT)

chronic fatigue syndrome

8. weatherley-Jones e, Nicholl JP, Thomas KJ, et al (2004). A randomized, controlled, triple-blind trial of the efficacy of homeopathic treatment for chronic fatigue syndrome. Journal of Psychosomatic Research;
56:189–197. (RCT)

common cold

9. Maiwald vL, Weinfurtner T, Mau J, Connert WD (1988). Therapie des grippalen Infekts mit einem homöopathischen Kombinationspräparat im Vergleich zu Acetylsalycilsäure. Kontrollierte, randomisierte Einfachblindstudie [Treatment of common cold with a combination homeopathic preparation compared with acetylsalicylic acid. A controlled, randomized single-blind study]. Arzneimittel Forschung;
38:578–582. (RCT)
Depression

10. adler Uc, Paiva NM, Cesar AT, et al (2009). Homeopathic individualized Q-potencies versus fluoxetine for moderate to severe depression: double-blind, randomized non-inferiority trial. Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine: eCAM [Epub ahead of print] (RCT)

extended sports recovery time

11. egocheaga rodriguez J, Urraca JM, Angeles Montoliu M, et al (2000). Estudio a doble ciego con
«Rendi-Max®» en deportistas de élite. Efectos sobre los niveles submáximos y máximos de esfuerzo [Double-cross study with Rendi-Max in elite sportsmen. Submaximal and maximal effort effects]. Archivos de Medicina del Deporte; 17:483-490. (RCT)

Fibromyalgia

12. Perry r, Terry R, Ernst E (2010). A systematic review of homoeopathy for the treatment of fibromyalgia.
Clinical Rheumatology; 29:457–464. (Review)

13. Bell i, Lewis D, Brooks A, et al (2004). Improved clinical status in fibromyalgia patients treated with individualized homeopathic remedies versus placebo. Rheumatology; 43:577–582. (RCT)

14. Fisher P, Greenwood A, Huskisson EC, et al (1989). Effect of homoeopathic treatment on fibrositis
(primary fibromyalgia). British Medical Journal; 299: 365-366. (RCT)

15. relton c, Smith C, Raw J, et al et al (2009). Healthcare provided by a homeopath as an adjunct to usual care for fibromyalgia (FMS): results of a pilot randomised controlled trial. Homeopathy; 98:77–82. (RCT)

immune function

16. Kuzeff rM (1998). Homeopathy, sensation of well-being and CD4-levels – A placebo-controlled, randomized trial. Complementary Therapies in Medicine; 6:4–9. (RCT)

influenza

17. vickers a, Smith C (2006). Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes (Cochrane review). In: The Cochrane Library. Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. CD001957. (Review)

18. attena F, Toscano G, Agozzino E, Del Giudice N (1995). La prévention des syndromes grippeaux par un médicament homéopathique: étude contolée [A randomized trial in the prevention of influenza-like syndromes by homeopathic management]. Revue d’épidémiologie et de santé publique; 43:380–382. (RCT)

19. Brydak LB, Denys A (1999). The evaluation of humoral response and the clinical evaluation of a risk- group patients’ state of health after administration of the homeopathic preparation Gripp-Heel during the influenza epidemic season 1993/94. International Review of Allergology and Clinical Immunology;
5:223–227. (RCT)

20. Ferley JP, Zmirou D, D’Adhemar D, Balducci F (1989). A controlled evaluation of a homoeopathic preparation in the treatment of influenza like syndromes. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology;
27:329–335. (RCT)

21. Papp r, Schuback G, Beck E, et al (1998). Oscillococcinum® in patients with influenza-like syndromes:
a placebo-controlled double-blind evaluation. British Homoeopathic Journal; 87:69–76. (RCT)

insomnia

22. cooper KL, Relton C (2010). Homeopathy for insomnia: A systematic review of research evidence.
Sleep Medicine Reviews; 14:329–337. (Review)

23. Bell ir, Howerter A, Jackson N, et al (2010). Effects of homeopathic medicines on polysomnographic sleep of young adults with histories of coffee-related insomnia. Sleep Medicine; 12:505–511. (RCT)

24. Brooks aJ, Bell IR, Howerter A, Jackson N, Aickin M (2010). Effects of homeopathic medicines on mood of adults with histories of coffee-related insomnia. Forsch Komplementmed; 17:250-257. (RCT)
25. carlini ea, Braz S, Troncone LRP, et al (1987). Efeito hipnótico de medicação homeopática e do placebo. Avaliação pela técnica de “duplo-cego” e “cruzamento” [Hypnotic effect of homeopathic medication and placebo. Evaluation by “double-blind” and “crossover” techniques]. Revista da Associação Médica Brasileira; 33:83–88. (RCT)

26. Naudé DF, Couchman IMS, Maharaj A (2010). Chronic primary insomnia: efficacy of homeopathic simillimum. Homeopathy; 99:63–68. [Published erratum: Homeopathy 2010; 99: 151] (RCT)

Low back pain

27. Gmünder r, Kissling R (2002). The efficacy of homeopathy in the treatment of chronic low back pain compared to standardized physiotherapy. Z Orthop Ihre Grenzgeb; 140: 503-508. (RCT)

28. Stam c, Bonnet MS, van Haselen RA (2001). The efficacy and safety of a homeopathic gel in the treatment of acute low back pain: a multi-centre, randomized, double-blind comparative clinical trial. British Homeopathic Journal, 90:21–28. (RCT)

Perennial allergic rhinitis

29. taylor Ma, Reilly D, Llewellyn-Jones RH, et al (2000). Randomised controlled trial of homoeopathy versus placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial series. British Medical Journal;
321:471–476. (RCT)

Plantar fasciitis

30. clark J, Percivall A (2000). A preliminary investigation into the effectiveness of the homeopathic remedy, Ruta graveolens, in the treatment of pain in plantar fasciitis. British Journal of Podiatry;
3:81–85. (RCT)

Post-operative ileus

31. Barnes J, Resch K-L, Ernst E (1997). Homeopathy for postoperative ileus? A meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology; 25: 628–633. (Review)

Post-operative oedema

32. totonchi a, Guyuron B (2007). A randomized, controlled comparison between arnica and steroids in the management of postrhinoplasty ecchymosis and edema. Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery; 120:271-
274. (RCT)

Post-operative wound healing

33. Karow J-H, Abt H-P, Fröhling M, Ackermann H (2008). Efficacy of Arnica montana D4 for healing of wounds after Hallux valgus surgery compared to diclofenac. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; 14:17–25. (RCT)

Postpartum bleeding

34. Oberbaum M, Galoyan N, Lerner-Geva L, et al (2005). The effect of the homeopathic remedies Arnica and Bellis perennis on mild postpartum bleeding – a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study
– preliminary results. Complementary Therapies in Medicine; 13:87–90. (RCT)

Postpartum lactation

35. Berrebi a, Parant O, Ferval F, et al (2001). Traitement de la douleur de la montée laiteuse non souhaitée par homéopathie dans le postpartum immédiat [Treatment of pain due to unwanted lactation with a homeopathic preparation given in the immediate post-partum period]. Journal de gynécologie, obstétrique et biologie de la reproduction; 30:353–357. (RCT)

Premenstrual syndrome

36. yakir M, Kreitler S, Brzezinski A, et al (2001). Effects of homeopathic treatment in women with premenstrual syndrome: a pilot study. British Homeopathic Journal; 90:148–153. (RCT)
Psoriasis

37. Bernstein S, Donsky H, Gulliver W, et al (2006). Treatment of mild to moderate psoriasis with Reliéva, a Mahonia aquifolium extract – a double-blind, placebo-controlled study. American Journal of Therapeutics; 13:121-126. (RCT)

38. wiesenauer M, Lüdtke R (1996). Mahonia aquifolium in patients with Psoriasis vulgaris – an intraindividual study. Phytomedicine; 3: 231-235. (RCT)

radiodermatitis

39. Balzarini a, Felisi E, Martini A, De Conno F (2000). Efficacy of homeopathic treatment of skin reactions during radiotherapy for breast cancer: a randomized, double-blind clinical trial. British Homeopathic Journal; 89:8–12. (RCT)

renal failure

40. Saruggia M, Corghi E (1992). Effects of homoeopathic dilutions of china rubra on intradialytic symptom- atology in patients treated with chronic haemodialysis. British Homoeopathic Journal; 81:86-88. (RCT)

rheumatic diseases

41. Jonas wB, Linde K, Ramirez G (2000). Homeopathy and rheumatic disease. Rheumatic Disease
Clinics of North America; 26: 117–123. (Review)

Seasonal allergic rhinitis (hay fever)

42. wiesenauer M, Lüdtke R (1996). A meta-analysis of the homeopathic treatment of pollinosis with Galphimia glauca. Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde; 3: 230–236. (Review)

43. taylor Ma, Reilly D, Llewellyn-Jones RH, et al (2006). Randomised controlled trials of homoeopathy versus placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial series. British Medical Journal,
2000; 321: 471–476. (Review)

44. Bellavite P, Ortolani R, Pontarollo F, et al. Immunology and homeopathy. 4. Clinical studies – Part 2.
Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine: eCAM; 3: 397–409. (Review)

45. aabel S, Laerum E, Dølvik S, Djupesland P (2000). Is homeopathic ‘immunotherapy’ effective? A double-blind, placebo-controlled trial with the isopathic remedy Betula 30c for patients with birch pollen allergy. British Homeopathic Journal; 89:161–168. (RCT)

46. aabel S (2000). No beneficial effect of isopathic prophylactic treatment for birch pollen allergy during a low-pollen season: a double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial of homeopathic Betula 30c. British Homeopathic Journal; 89:169–173. (RCT)

47. aabel S (2001). Prophylactic and acute treatment with the homeopathic medicine Betula 30c for birch pollen allergy: a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study of consistency of VAS responses. British Homeopathic Journal; 90:73–78. (RCT)

48. Kim LS, Riedlinger JE, Baldwin CM, et al (2005). Treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis using homeopathic preparation of common allergens in the southwest region of the US: a randomized, controlled clinical trial. Annals of Pharmacotherapy; 39:617–624. (RCT)

49. reilly Dt, Taylor MA, McSharry C, Aitchison T (1986). Is homeopathy a placebo response? Controlled trial of homeopathic potency, with pollen in hayfever as model. Lancet; ii:881–885. (RCT)

50. weiser M, Gegenheimer LH, Klein P (1999). A randomized equivalence trial comparing the efficacy and safety of Luffa comp.-Heel nasal spray with cromolyn sodium spray in the treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis. Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde, 6:142–148. (RCT)

51. wiesenauer M, Gaus W (1985). Double-blind trial comparing the effectiveness of the homoeopathic preparation Galphimia potentization D6, Galphimia dilution 10-6 and placebo on pollinosis. Arzneimittel Forschung; 35:1745–1747. (RCT)
52. wiesenauer M, Gaus W, Häussler S (1990). Behandlung der Pollinoisis mit Galphimia glauca. Eine Doppelblindstudie unter Praxisbedingungen [Treatment of pollinosis with the homeopathic preparation Galphimia glauca. A double-blind trial in clinical practice]. Allergologie; 13:359–363. (RCT)

53. wiesenauer M, Lüdtke R (1995). The treatment of pollinosis with Galphimia glauca D4 – a randomized placebo-controlled double-blind clinical trial. Phytomedicine; 2: 3-6. (RCT)

Seborrhoeic dermatitis

54. Smith Sa, Baker AE, Williams JH (2002). Effective treatment of seborrhoeic dermatitis using a low dose, oral homeopathic medication consisting of potassium bromide, sodium bromide, nickel sulfate, and sodium chloride in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Alternative Medicine Review; 7:59–67. (RCT)

Sepsis

55. Frass M, Linkesch M, Banyai S, et al (2005). Adjunctive homeopathic treatment in patients with severe sepsis: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in an intensive care unit. Homeopathy;
94:75–80. (RCT)

Sinusitis

56. Friese K-H, Zabalotnyi DI (2007). Homöopathie bei akuter Rhinosinusitis. Eine doppelblinde, placebokontrollierte Studie belegt die Wirksamkeit und Verträglichkeit eines homöopathischen Kombinations-arzneimittels [Homeopathy in acute rhinosinusitis. A double-blind, placebo controlled study shows the efficiency and tolerability of a homeopathic combination remedy]. HNO; 55:271–277. (RCT)

57. weiser M, Clasen B (1994). Randomisierte plazebokontrolierte Doppelblindstudie zur Untersuchung der klinische Wirksamkeit der homöopathischen Euphorbium compositum-Nasentropfen S bei chronischer Sinusitis [Randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study of the clinical efficacy of the homeopathic Euphorbium compositum-S nasal spray in cases of chronic sinusitis]. Forschende
Komplementärmedizin; 1:251–259. (RCT)

58. wiesenauer M, Gaus W, Bohnacker U, Häussler S (1989). Wirksamkeitsprüfung von homöopathische Kombinationspräparaten bei Sinusitis. Ergebnisse einer randomisierten Doppelblindstudie unter Praxisbedingungen [Efficiency of homeopathic preparation combinations in sinusitis. Results of a randomized double blind study with general practitioners]. Arzneimittel Forschung; 39:620-625. (RCT)

59. Zabolotnyi Di, Kneis KC, Richardson A, et al (2007). Efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) in patients with acute maxillary sinusitis: a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo- controlled, multicenter clinical trial. Explore (NY); 3:98–109. (RCT)

Snoring

60. Lipman D, Sexton G, Schlesser J (1999). A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled evaluation of the safety and efficacy of a natural over-the-counter (OTC) medication in the management of snoring. Sleep and Breathing; 3: 53-56. (RCT)

Stomatitis
61. Oberbaum M, Yaniv I, Ben-Gal Y, et al (2001). A randomized, controlled clinical trial of the homeopathic medication Traumeel S in the treatment of chemotherapy-induced stomatitis in children undergoing stem cell transplantation. Cancer; 92:684–690. (RCT)

tracheal secretions
62. Frass M, Dielacher C, Linkesch M, et al (2005). Influence of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions in critically ill patients. Chest; 127:936–941. (RCT)

Upper respiratory tract infections, including otitis media
63. Bornhöft G, Wolf U, Ammon K, et al (2006). Effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of homeopathy in general practice – summarized health technology assessment. Forschende Komplementärmedizin; 13 Suppl 2: 19–29. (Review)
64. Bellavite P, Ortolani R, Pontarollo F, et al (2006). Immunology and homeopathy. 4. Clinical studies – Part 1. Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine: eCAM; 3: 293–301. (Review)

65. Jacobs J, Springer DA, Crothers D (2001). Homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media in children: a preliminary randomized placebo-controlled trial. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal; 20:177–183. (RCT)

Uraemic pruritus
66. cavalcanti aM, Rocha LM, Carillo R Jr, et al (2003). Effects of homeopathic treatment on pruritus of haemodialysis patients: a randomized placebo-controlled double-blind trial. Homeopathy; 92:177–181. (RCT)

varicose veins
67. ernst e, Saradeth T, Resch KL (1990). Complementary therapy of varicose veins – a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial. Phlebology; 5:157–163. (RCT)

vertigo
68. Schneider B, Klein P, Weiser M (2005). Treatment of vertigo with a homeopathic complex remedy compared with usual treatments: a meta-analysis of clinical trials. Arzneimittelforschung; 55: 23–29. (Review)

69. issing w, Klein P, Weiser M (2005). The homeopathic preparation Vertigoheel versus Ginkgo biloba in the treatment of vertigo in an elderly population: a double-blinded, randomized, controlled clinical trial. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 11:155–160. (RCT)

70. weiser M, Strösser W, Klein P (1998). Homeopathic vs. conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study. Archives of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery,
124:879–885. (RCT)

NON-raNDOMiSeD cLiNicaL StUDieS

cardiac insufficiency
Schröder D, Weiser M, Klein P (2003). Efficacy of a homeopathic Crataegus preparation compared with usual therapy for mild (NYHA II) cardiac insufficiency: results of an observational cohort study. European Journal of Heart Failure; 5: 319–326.

childhood fever
Derasse M, Klein P, Weiser M (2005). The effects of a complex homeopathic medicine compared with acetaminophen in the symptomatic treatment of acute febrile infections in children: an observational study. Explore (NY); 1: 33–39.

common cold
Schmiedel v, Klein P (2006). A complex homeopathic preparation for the symptomatic treatment of upper respiratory infections associated with the common cold: An observational study. Explore (NY); 2: 109–114.

Dysmenorrhoea
witt cM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN (2009). Homeopathic treatment of patients with dysmenorrhea: a prospective observational study with 2 years follow-up. Archives of Gynecology and Obstetrics; 280: 603–611.

Gastrointestinal cramps
Müller-Krampe B, Oberbaum M, Dipl-Math PK, Weiser M (2007). Effects of Spascupreel versus hyoscine butylbromide for gastrointestinal cramps in children. Pediatrics International; 49: 328–334.
Seasonal allergic rhinitis (hay fever)
Goossens M, Laekeman G, Aertgeerts B, Buntinx F (2009). Evaluation of the quality of life after individualized homeopathic treatment for seasonal allergic rhinitis. A prospective, open, non-comparative study. Homeopathy; 98: 11–16.

Headache
walach H, Lowes T, Mussbach D, et al (2001). The long term effects of homeopathic treatment of chronic headaches: one year follow-up and single case time series analysis. British Homeopathic Journal; 90:
63–72.

witt cM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN (2009). Homeopathic treatment of chronic headache (ICD-9: 784.0)
– a prospective observational study with 2-year follow-up. Forschende Komplementärmedizin; 16: 227–235.

insomnia
waldschütz r, Klein P (2009). The homeopathic preparation Neurexan vs. valerian for the treatment of insomnia: an observational study. Scientific World Journal; 8: 411–420.

Low back pain
witt cM, Lüdtke R, Baur R, Willich SN (2009). Homeopathic treatment of patients with chronic low
back pain: a prospective observational study with 2 years’ follow-up. Clinical Journal of Pain; 25: 334–339.

Migraine
witt cM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN (2010). Homeopathic treatment of patients with migraine: a prospective observational study with a 2-year follow-up period. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine; 16:
347–355.

Musculo-skeletal injury
Schneider c, Schneider B, Hanisch J, van Haselen R (2008). The role of a homoeopathic preparation compared with conventional therapy in the treatment of injuries: an observational cohort study. Complementary Therapies in Medicine; 16: 22–27.

Nervousness
Hubner r, van Haselen R, Klein P (2009). Effectiveness of the homeopathic preparation Neurexan compared with that of commonly used valerian-based preparations for the treatment of nervousness/restlessness – an observational study. Scientific World Journal; 9: 733–745.

Otitis media
Friese K-H, Kruse S, Lüdtke R, Moeller H (1997). The homoeopathic treatment of otitis media in children –
comparisons with conventional therapy. International Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics;
35: 296–301.

Psoriasis
witt cM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN (2009). Homeopathic treatment of patients with psoriasis – a prospective observational study with 2 years follow-up. Journal of the European Acadamy of Dermatology and Venereology; 23: 538–543.

respiratory tract infection
ammerschlager H, Klein P, Weiser M, Oberbaum M (2005). Behandlung von Entzündungen im Bereich der oberen Atemwege – Vergleich eines homöopathischen Komplexpräparates mit Xylometazolin [Treatment of inflammatory diseases of the upper respiratory tract – comparison of a homeopathic complex remedy with xylometazoline]. Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde; 12: 24–31.

Haidvogl M, Riley DS, Heger M, et al (2007). Homeopathic and conventional treatment for acute respiratory and ear complaints: a comparative study on outcome in the primary care setting. BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine; 7: 7.
Sinusitis
witt cM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN (2009). Homeopathic treatment of patients with chronic sinusitis: a prospective observational study with 8 years follow-up. BMC Ear Nose and Throat Disorders; 9: 7.

tendinopathy
Schneider c, Klein P, Stolt P, Oberbaum M (2005). A homeopathic ointment preparation compared with 1%
diclofenac gel for acute symptomatic treatment of tendinopathy. Explore (NY); 1: 446–452.

vertigo
Klopp r, Niemer W, Weiser M (2005). Microcirculatory effects of a homeopathic preparation in patients with mild vertigo: an intravital microscopic study. Microvascular Research; 69: 10–16.

viral infection
rabe a, Weiser M, Klein P (2004). Effectiveness and tolerability of a homoeopathic remedy compared with conventional therapy for mild viral infections. International Journal of Clinical Practice; 58: 827–832

In this article the acronym UHD stands for Ultra High Dilutions .. which fall into the category of above the Hannemanian 30C
Ivor
===============================

For this reason I am very pleased that there are people who are experimenting with using UHDs independently of homeopathy. The research that most impressed me of late involved international collaboration, the Irish subset being led by led by Madeleine Ennis, a pharmacologist at Queen’s University, Belfast. Ennis’ team looked at the effects of highly diluted solutions of histamine on basophiles.

The study, replicated in four different laboratories in Europe, found that the highly diluted solutions worked just like histamine. This kind of research will do far more for the credibility of homeopathy than any number of RCTs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16036166

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html?page=2

4 Belfast homeopathy results

MADELEINE Ennis, a pharmacologist at Queen’s University, Belfast, was the scourge of homeopathy. She railed against its claims that a chemical remedy could be diluted to the point where a sample was unlikely to contain a single molecule of anything but water, and yet still have a healing effect. Until, that is, she set out to prove once and for all that homeopathy was bunkum.

In her most recent paper, Ennis describes how her team looked at the effects of ultra-dilute solutions of histamine on human white blood cells involved in inflammation. These “basophils” release histamine when the cells are under attack. Once released, the histamine stops them releasing any more. The study, replicated in four different labs, found that homeopathic solutions – so dilute that they probably didn’t contain a single histamine molecule – worked just like histamine. Ennis might not be happy with the homeopaths’ claims, but she admits that an effect cannot be ruled out.

So how could it happen? Homeopaths prepare their remedies by dissolving things like charcoal, deadly nightshade or spider venom in ethanol, and then diluting this “mother tincture” in water again and again. No matter what the level of dilution, homeopaths claim, the original remedy leaves some kind of imprint on the water molecules. Thus, however dilute the solution becomes, it is still imbued with the properties of the remedy.

You can understand why Ennis remains sceptical. And it remains true that no homeopathic remedy has ever been shown to work in a large randomised placebo-controlled clinical trial. But the Belfast study (Inflammation Research, vol 53, p 181) suggests that something is going on. “We are,” Ennis says in her paper, “unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.” If the results turn out to be real, she says, the implications are profound: we may have to rewrite physics and chemistry.

gary
where is your proof. Just saying you have some means- you don’t have any.

As the Cochrane review noted:

“WARNING: This review includes 15 out of 36 trials funded by industry (four had no funding declaration). An earlier systematic review of 274 influenza vaccine studies published up to 2007 found industry funded studies were published in more prestigious journals and cited more than other studies independently from methodological quality and size. Studies funded from public sources were significantly less likely to report conclusions favorable to the vaccines.

The review demonstrated that reliable scientific evidence confirming that influenza vaccines are effective is thin and there is plenty of reason to suspect that there may be a manipulation of conclusions when the studies are funded by drug companies. The content and conclusions of this review should be interpreted in light of this finding.”

So, it’s just not worth the risk of injecting dubious substances into your body, especially as, aside from the caveats above regarding a very likely conflict of industry interests, the meta analysis concluded that “There is no evidence that they affect complications, such as pneumonia, or transmission” and only a possible (as we must remember again that those conflicts of interests may very likely further downplay even the modest findings in the meta analysis, as the authors suggested)”modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost.”

Again, just in case a reader is asleep at the wheel, as the Cochrane review concluded, “reliable scientific evidence confirming that influenza vaccines are effective is thin and there is plenty of reason to suspect that there may be a manipulation of conclusions when the studies are funded by drug companies.”

So, anyone who wishes to trust those who stand to profit by their own research, that’s your own choice and good luck with that (although I feel that natural selection might deal you a hand you were not expecting. But, that’s not my problem, and we’ll all benefit in the longer run – After all, it’s your health, your life, your responsibility.)

For those with a modicum of sense,
I think it really is ‘End of story’

Time for a different discussion.

Bilbo .. I have to agree. End of story. But I have a little further salt to rub into Garrys cuts and bruises …

http://ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date

“The fundamental concept of science-based medicine (SBM) is that medical practice should be based upon the best available science. This may seem obvious, but there are many important details to its application, such as the relationship between clinical and basic science. Clinical claims require clinical evidence, but clinical evidence can be tricky and is often preliminary. It is therefore helpful (I would say essential) to view the clinical evidence in light of all of the rest of science.

A thorough basic and clinical science analysis of a medical claim can be summarized by the term “plausibility,” or “prior probability” if you want to put it into statistical terms. When we say a certain belief is plausible we mean it is consistent with what we know from the rest of science. In other words, because of the many weaknesses of clinical evidence, in order for a therapy to be generally accepted as part of SBM it should have a certain minimal supporting clinical evidence and overall scientific plausibility.

These can exist in different proportions – for example one therapy may be highly plausible (it would be shocking if it were not true) and have modest supporting clinical evidence, while another may have unknown plausibility but with solid clinical evidence of efficacy. But no therapy should have clinical evidence that suggests lack of efficacy, nor extreme implausibility (not just an unknown mechanism, but no possible mechanism).

The poster child for extreme scientific implausibility within medicine is, arguable, homeopathy. Its “law of similars” is little more than sympathetic magic, and its “law of infinitessimals” leads to concoctions diluted to the point that they have zero active ingredient and only the magical memory left behind. It is this reality which inspired a recent review to characterize homeopathy as “witchcraft.”

What about the clinical evidence? The clinical evidence, when taken as a whole, and even if we set aside the question of plausibility, shows that homeopathy does not work. Decades of research have failed to provide supporting evidence for any application of homeopathy. It has failed to reject the null hypothesis, to show efficacy, to allow for the recommendation of homeopathy for any indication, to differentiate homeopathy from a placebo – in other words, homeopathy does not work.

If we consider the SBM criteria above, we can summarize homeopathy by saying it has extreme implausibility and the clinical evidence shows lack of efficacy. It should not work, and it does not work. There is no legitimate controversy about this. The only think keeping homeopathy alive are delusional proponents and a public (including many regulators) who do not know what homeopathy truly is.

Proponents, however, are desperately trying to keep their pseudoscience alive by misrepresenting the evidence and the arguments of homeopathy critics. A recent example of this is a paper by Peter Fisher, the Clinical Director Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine, and a prominent homeopath. He is trying to coin the phrase “negative plausibility bias.” His argument, essentially, is that the evidence shows homeopathy works (at least as well as medical treatments that do not work, which is an odd argument), but there is a negative plausibility bias against homeopathy which motivates scientists to reject this evidence. Fisher is both wrong and irrelevant in this position.

Fisher is wrong in arguing that the clinical evidence supports the efficacy of homeopathy. He does this by cherry picking positive studies (which are part of the noise of any clinical research), a common strategy. Meanwhile, systematic reviews do not show supporting evidence for homeopathy. Worse for homeopathy, there is a clear pattern in the research. The better designed and controlled the study, the more negative the results – a clear pattern of lack of efficacy. Even reviews that desperately try to spin the results in a positive way in the end show there is no evidence to support the efficacy of homeopathy.

The main point of the article, however, is to dismiss the scientific assessment of homeopathy as a “bias.” It seems like it is news to Fisher that plausibility is not a bias – it’s science.

Interestingly, Fisher claims that the law of similars part of homeopathy is not even controversial – and then he makes the same, tired analogies to hormesis and paradoxical drug effects, which actually have no relevance to homeopathy. Homeopathy “ingredients” are chosen for magical reasons that have no relationship to actual biology or chemistry. Further, the high dilutions of homeopathic preparations render such analogies invalid. Fisher and other homeopaths are just fishing for any possible hand-waving justification for homeopathy, but they lend nothing to its plausibility because they fail to make a scientifically coherent argument.

Fisher then essentially argues that the clinical evidence shows homeopathy works (wrong) but is rejected because of the “negative plausibility bias.” There is a kernel of truth to his view in that, in the face of extreme scientific implausibility, even modestly positive clinical evidence is looked upon as insufficient and not definitive. We can look at it this way – what are the odds that a mountain of solid basic science is wrong vs some sloppy and tricky clinical research is wrong? It would take overwhelmingly rigorous and positive clinical evidence to call into question long established principles of basic science. Homeopathy does not come anywhere close – even if we take the distorted and incorrect view of the clinical evidence Fisher is pushing.

The article is essentially Fisher whining that the scientific community is not ignoring the extreme scientific implausibility of homeopathy.

Fisher also tries to make a tu quoque argument – recycling yet another old ploy of medical pseudoscientists. He says that the evidence for antibiotic use in upper respiratory tract infections (URTI) is no different than homeopathy but practitioners use antibiotics and not homeopathy. The evidence base for any other practice is irrelevant to homeopathy, but even that aside his argument is a curious one. I agree that systematic reviews fail to show efficacy for routine antibiotic use in URTI. Therefore – they should not be used. In fact there are efforts within mainstream medicine to reduce the use of antibiotics in URTI, and to eliminate their routine use.

The story with URTI is more complex, however, because some people do get bacterial interference with URTI and there may be a role for antibiotics in selected cases – the trick is in knowing how to select those cases. More research is legitimately needed to explore these issues.

The only consistent position, therefore, is to favor the elimination of routine antibiotic use in URTI, based upon current evidence, and also to favor the complete elimination of homeopathy as a practice. Meanwhile, it is reasonable to do more research into a possible limited role of antibiotics in selected cases (based partly on plausibility). It is also reasonable to favor the abandonment of any further research into homeopathy, based on its extreme scientific implausibility.

You can call it a “negative plausibility bias” or you can call it science, based upon your perspective.

”
Jas ….
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/human-biology/immune-system1.htm

“One theme that we at Science-Based Medicine keep revisiting again and again is not so much a question of the science behind medical therapies (although we do discuss that issue arguably more than any other) but rather a question of why. Why is it that so many people cling so tenaciously to pseudoscience, quackery, and, frequently, conspiracy theories used by believers to justify why various pseudoscience and quackery are rejected by mainstream science and medicine? Certainly, I’ve touched on this issue before on several occasions, for example, with respect to the anti-vaccine movement, the claim that abortion causes breast cancer, and how we as humans crave certainty.

It turns out that science and science-based medicine are hard for humans to accept because they often conflict with what our senses perceive and brains interpret as irrefutable evidence. The pattern-seeking function of our brain, when evaluating questions of causation in medicine, frequently betrays us. For instance, when a parent sees her child regress into autism sometime not long after being vaccinated, the easiest, most instinctive, and most emotionally compelling conclusion is that the vaccine must have had something to do with it. When scientists tell her that, no, in large studies looking at hundreds of thousands of children, there is no good evidence that vaccination confers an increased risk of autism and a lot of evidence that it does not, it’s a very hard message to believe, because it goes against how the parent interprets what she’s seen with her own eyes. Indeed, how often have we seen believers in the vaccine-autism link pour derision on the concept that when something like autistic regression happens in close temporal proximity to vaccination that the correlation does not necessarily equal causation? Similarly, believers in “alternative medicine” who experience improvement in their symptoms also pour derision on the observation, explained so well by R. Barker Bausell in Snake Oil Science, that people frequently take remedies when their symptoms are at their worst, leading them to attribute natural regression to the mean to whatever nostrum they started taking at the time.

These issues have come to the fore again, thanks to an article by an acquaintance of mine, Chris Mooney, author of The Republican War on Science, Storm World: Hurricanes, Politics, and the Battle Over Global Warming, and Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens our Future (co-authored with Sheril Kirshenbaum). The article appeared in a recent issue of Mother Jones and was entitled, rather ironically, The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science. Chris made his name as an author primarily in writing about the science of anthropogenic global warming and the political battles over policies intended to mitigate it and, to a lesser extent, over creationism and evolution denial. Of late he has written about the anti-vaccine movement as an anti-science movement, leading predictably to his being attacked by the likes of J.B. Handley as viciously as I and others have. Also of note, although he was widely praised for The Republican War on Science and Storm World, Mooney has been widely criticized in some circles for being too critical of “new atheists” and for lack of substance. In his current article, he discusses some of the science thus far about why people can cling to beliefs that science doesn’t just cast doubt upon but shows convincingly are totally wrong.

Motivated reasoning
In his article, Mooney sets the stage with a very famous example studied by Stanford University psychologist Leon Festinger in the 1050s of the Seekers. The Seekers were an apocalyptic cult in the Chicago area led by a Dianetics enthusiast named Dorothy Martin. Its members believed that they were communicating with aliens, one of whom was named “Sananda,” who was supposedly the astral incarnation of Jesus Christ. Martin also taught her followers that Sananda had told her the precise date of a world-ending cataclysm: December 21, 1954. As a result, some of Martin’s followers quit their jobs and sold their homes because they expected that a spaceship would rescue them right before the earth split open and the sea swallowed much of the United states. In fact, Martin’s followers even went so far as to rid themselves of all traces of metal, even removing underwire bras and taking the zippers out of their clothes, because they were told that such metal would pose a danger to the spaceships. Here’s Mooney’s account of what happened when December 21, 1954 came and went and, as those of us living today know, no cataclysm occurred:

At first, the group struggled for an explanation. But then rationalization set in. A new message arrived, announcing that they’d all been spared at the last minute. Festinger summarized the extraterrestrials’ new pronouncement: “The little group, sitting all night long, had spread so much light that God had saved the world from destruction.” Their willingness to believe in the prophecy had saved Earth from the prophecy!

From that day forward, the Seekers, previously shy of the press and indifferent toward evangelizing, began to proselytize. “Their sense of urgency was enormous,” wrote Festinger. The devastation of all they had believed had made them even more certain of their beliefs.

In the annals of denial, it doesn’t get much more extreme than the Seekers. They lost their jobs, the press mocked them, and there were efforts to keep them away from impressionable young minds. But while Martin’s space cult might lie at on the far end of the spectrum of human self-delusion, there’s plenty to go around. And since Festinger’s day, an array of new discoveries in psychology and neuroscience has further demonstrated how our preexisting beliefs, far more than any new facts, can skew our thoughts and even color what we consider our most dispassionate and logical conclusions. This tendency toward so-called “motivated reasoning” helps explain why we find groups so polarized over matters where the evidence is so unequivocal: climate change, vaccines, “death panels,” the birthplace and religion of the president (PDF), and much else. It would seem that expecting people to be convinced by the facts flies in the face of, you know, the facts.

I’ve actually written about motivated reasoning before a couple of years ago. At the time, I used a then-recent study that examined how impervious to evidence certain beliefs about politics were, specifically the belief that Saddam Hussein had been involved in planning 9/11, conspiring with Al Qaeda to destroy the World Trade Center twin towers. In this study, even President George W. Bush’s own words stating that Hussein was not involved in planning 9/11 were not enough to convince believers. Another study cited used similar methodology regarding Saddam Hussein’s lack of weapons of mass destruction. In fact, in this study, there was a “backfire” effect, in which those exposed to disconfirmatory information about Saddam Hussein’s involvement with 9/11 were actually more likely to believe that he was, in fact, involved. Also discussed was the belief that President Barack Obama was not born in the United States and is therefore not eligible to be President (the “Birther” movement, which recently suffered a bit of a setback) and the belief that there were “death panels” written into the recently passed Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. In the study I discussed, the authors based their analysis of motivated reasoning on its being driven primarily by cognitive dissonance, the the feeling we have when we are forced to become aware that we are holding two contradictory thoughts at the same time. The strength of the dissonance depends upon the importance of the subject to an individual, how sharply the dissonant thoughts conflict, and how much the conflict can be rationalized away, and cognitive dissonance theory thus posits that, when faced with evidence or occurrences that challenge their beliefs, people will tend to minimize the dissonance any way they can without giving up those beliefs.

To the list of examples provided by the authors, I also added the example of someone well-known to this blog, namely Andrew Wakefield, the (in)famous British gastroenterologist who in 1998 published a study in The Lancet that claimed to find a link between the MMR vaccine and “autistic enterocolitis.” When revelations of Wakefield’s financial fraud came to light, however, his fans in the anti-vaccine movement were motivated to cling all the more tightly to him, circling the wagons and attacking anyone who had the temerity to point out his fraud, bad science, bad medicine, and massive conflicts of interest. For example, just last month, in response to criticism of Andrew Wakefield, J.B. Handley, the founder of the anti-vaccine group Generation Rescue, pointed out that people like him view Andrew Wakefield as “Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one.” Never mind that, scientifically speaking, Wakefield is just as discredited in his science as Dorothy Martin was in her predictions of global destruction. In the same article, anti-vaccine activist Michelle Guppy warned the reporter direly, “Be nice to him, or we will hurt you.” As you can see, despite the drip, drip, drip of allegations and evidence showing Andrew Wakefield to be a horrible scientist and even a research fraud have not had much of an effect on committed activists. I would argue, however, that they did have a significant effect on the media and the fence-sitters.

For the most part, most scientifically literate people know what cognitive dissonance is, but what is “motivated reasoning”? According to Mooney, to understand motivated reasoning, you first have to understand that what we humans call “reasoning” is not a cold, emotionless, Mr. Spock-like process. The way we human beings reason is actually suffused with emotion, or affect:

Not only are the two inseparable, but our positive or negative feelings about people, things, and ideas arise much more rapidly than our conscious thoughts, in a matter of milliseconds—fast enough to detect with an EEG device, but long before we’re aware of it. That shouldn’t be surprising: Evolution required us to react very quickly to stimuli in our environment. It’s a “basic human survival skill,” explains political scientist Arthur Lupia of the University of Michigan. We push threatening information away; we pull friendly information close. We apply fight-or-flight reflexes not only to predators, but to data itself.

We’re not driven only by emotions, of course—we also reason, deliberate. But reasoning comes later, works slower—and even then, it doesn’t take place in an emotional vacuum. Rather, our quick-fire emotions can set us on a course of thinking that’s highly biased, especially on topics we care a great deal about.

As a result, if this hypothesis is accurate, it can be expected that people will almost always respond to scientific or technical evidence in a way that justifies their preexisting beliefs. Examples of evidence that support this hypothesis are listed, including the study I discussed two years ago using the example of the persistent belief that Saddam Hussein had a hand in engineering 9/11. Also discussed was a classic study from 1979 in which pro- and anti-death penalty advocates were exposed to two fake studies, one supporting and one refuting the hypothesis that the death penalty deters violent crime. In addition, they were also shown detailed scientific critiques of each study that indicated that neither study was methodologically stronger than the other. In each case, advocates were more likely to find the study that supported their bias more convincing and to be more critical of the one that did not.

To anyone who understands human nature, this is not particularly surprising. After all, as Simon & Garfunkel sang in their 1970 song The Boxer (one of my all time favorite songs), “a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” That’s not quite motivated reasoning, but close. Motivated reasoning would be more along the lines of saying, “a man pays attention to information that supports his beliefs and values and finds ways to disregard or discount the rest.” This principle, more than anything else, probably explains why believers in alt-med and anti-vaccine activists are immune to disconfirming evidence. Not just immune, either, they actively seek out confirming evidence and avoid disconfirming evidence, a task made much easier by the Internet and multiple different news outlets catering to different ideologies:

Okay, so people gravitate toward information that confirms what they believe, and they select sources that deliver it. Same as it ever was, right? Maybe, but the problem is arguably growing more acute, given the way we now consume information—through the Facebook links of friends, or tweets that lack nuance or context, or “narrowcast” and often highly ideological media that have relatively small, like-minded audiences. Those basic human survival skills of ours, says Michigan’s Arthur Lupia, are “not well-adapted to our information age.”

We see this in the CAM movement. An entire network of websites and blogs has sprouted up over the last decade or so. CAM believers, if they wish, can peruse sites like NaturalNews.com, Mercola.com, and Whale.to, watch television shows like The Dr. Oz Show, and never see a single piece of information or study that challenges their world view that because it’s natural it must be better, that conventional, scientific medicine is hopelessly in the thrall of big pharma, and that modalities that are nothing more than magical thinking can cure disease. Similarly, anti-vaccine activists have their own set of websites, including Generation Rescue, Age of Autism, the NVIC, the Orwellian-named International Medical Council on Vaccination (formerly “Medical Voices,” and discussed by Mark Crislip and myself), SafeMinds, and many others. These CAM and anti-vaccine sites also have their own scientific-seeming meetings, such as Autism One (which, by the way, is fast approaching again) and the AANP.

Wrapped safely in such a cocoon, believers seldom encounter arguments against their cherished beliefs, much less strong arguments against them. No wonder they’re often so poor at defending their favorite woo when they dare to stray out of the safe confines of their little world. However, one interpretation of motivated reasoning that I’ve come up with states that you don’t actually have to be good at producing arguments that convince other people; you just have to be good enough to cherry pick arguments that convince yourself.

Politics, CAM, and the anti-vaccine movement
While Mooney’s summary for the evidence for motivated reasoning is compelling, he stumbles a bit in trying to ascribe different forms of motivated reasoning to the right and the left. While it is clear that certain forms of anti-science do tend to cluster either on the right or the left (for example, anthropogenic global warming denialism is definitely far more common on the right), if motivated reasoning is a valid hypothesis that describes well how human beings react to information that challenges their belief systems and values matter more (at least initially) than facts and science, then it would only be expected that certain forms of science would be viewed more hostilely by the right than the left while other scientific findings would be viewed more hostilely by the left. Unfortunately, one of the examples Mooney picks is fairly dubious:

So is there a case study of science denial that largely occupies the political left? Yes: the claim that childhood vaccines are causing an epidemic of autism. Its most famous proponents are an environmentalist (Robert F. Kennedy Jr.) and numerous Hollywood celebrities (most notably Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey). The Huffington Post gives a very large megaphone to denialists. And Seth Mnookin, author of the new book The Panic Virus, notes that if you want to find vaccine deniers, all you need to do is go hang out at Whole Foods.

It’s hard not to note right here that the founder of Whole Foods, John Mackey, is an anti-union Libertarian and admirer of Ayn Rand. In any case, I really hate it when people like Mooney try to pin anti-vaccine views as being mainly “on the left.” True, left-leaning crunchy types are the primary face of anti-vaccine views, but there is an entire underground on the right that is virulently anti-vaccine. These include General Bert Stubblebine III‘s Natural Solutions Foundation, far right libertarians, and others who want to protect their “purity of essence.” In addition, FOX News isn’t above pushing anti-vaccine nonsense. For example, of late the FOX and Friends crew has been doing sympathetic pieces on Andrew Wakefield, interviews with Dr. Bob Sears, SafeMinds’ anti-vaccine PSA campaign, Louise Kuo Habakus (who is virulently anti-vaccine herself and politically active in New Jersey pushing for transparent “philosophical exemption” laws. Politically, some of the most rabid anti-vaccine activists in government are conservative, for instance Representative Dan Burton. Moreover, conservative fundamentalist religion is not uncommonly a motivation for anti-vaccine views. Not surprisingly, Mooney’s example ignited a rather intense debate in the blogosophere, which included Mike the Mad Biologist, Razib Khan, Joshua Rosenau, Andrew Sullivan, David Frum, and Kevin Drum, among others.

This debate didn’t go very far in either direction because there aren’t actually a lot of good data examining whether there is a correlation between political affiliation and anti-vaccine views. Ultimately, Mooney followed up with a post on his blog in which he did the best he could do with polling data on the politics of vaccine resistance. Reanalyzing a poll from 2009 asking about Jenny McCarthy’s anti-vaccine views, specifically how many people were aware of them and how many were more or less likely to agree with them, Brendan Nyhan and Chris Mooney found:

So here are the results: Liberals (41% not aware, 38 % aware but not more likely, 21 % aware and more likely); Moderates (48% not aware, 28% aware but not more likely, 24% aware and more likely); Conservatives (49% not aware, 28 % aware but not more likely, 23% aware and more likely).

These results basically suggest that there’s little or no political divide in terms of who falls for Jenny McCarthy’s misinformation. Notably, liberals were somewhat more aware of her claims and yet, nevertheless, were least likely to listen to them. But not by a huge margin or anything.

Mooney also noted another poll done by Pew regarding whether vaccines should be mandatory:

What’s interesting here is that Pew also provided a political breakdown of the results, and there was simply no difference between Democrats and Republicans. 71% of members of both parties said childhood vaccinations should be required, while 26% of Republicans and 27% of Democrats said parents should decide. (Independents were slightly worse: 67% said vaccinations should be required, while 30% favored parental choice.)

Bottom line: There’s no evidence here to suggest that vaccine denial (and specifically, believing that childhood vaccines cause autism) is a distinctly left wing or liberal phenomenon. However, I will reiterate that we don’t really have good surveys at this point that are clearly designed to get at this question.

Even though the evidence is admittedly weak and more studies and surveys would definitely be in order, Mooney’s conclusion is nonetheless in line with my experience. I’ve said before many times that anti-vaccine views are the woo that knows no political boundaries. Although I don’t have hard scientific data to support this my contention and therefore can’t definitively discount the possibility that my observations represent confirmation bias, I’ve noticed that right wing anti-vaccine activists tent to be suspicious of the government and appeal to “health freedom” as a reason for their resistance to vaccination, and tend to eschew any societal obligation to contribute to herd immunity. Left wing anti-vaccine activists tend to be suspicious of big pharma and believe that vaccines are somehow “unnatural.” I realize my interpretation might be biased, but until better data are available it’s all I have to work with. Similarly, alternative medicine use tends not to fall into an easy left-right dichotomy either. My favorite example to illustrate this point is that, even though alternative medicine is viewed as a crunchy, “New Age” phenomenon more prevalent on the left, the Nazi regime actively promoted naturopathy and various other “volkish” alternative medicine modalities. I trust that now someone will invoke Godwin’s law, but forgive me; I was intentionally using an extreme example to illustrate my point that all parts of the political spectrum can be prone to quackery.

Finally, Mooney makes another point that I quibble with:

Well, according to Charles Taber and Milton Lodge of Stony Brook, one insidious aspect of motivated reasoning is that political sophisticates are prone to be more biased than those who know less about the issues. “People who have a dislike of some policy—for example, abortion—if they’re unsophisticated they can just reject it out of hand,” says Lodge. “But if they’re sophisticated, they can go one step further and start coming up with counterarguments.” These individuals are just as emotionally driven and biased as the rest of us, but they’re able to generate more and better reasons to explain why they’re right—and so their minds become harder to change.

I would quibble somewhat with whether, in the case of science and medicine at least, that apparent “sophisticated” understanding of the issues possessed by ideologues is actually as sophisticated as it appears on the surface. In some cases it might be, but far more often it’s a superficial understanding that has little depth, mainly because few lay people have the detailed scientific and medical background to apply the information. It’s often a matter of knowing facts, but not having the scientific experience, understanding of mechanisms, or sophistication to put them in context or to apply them to the situation properly. Thus, the arguments of, for instance, anti-vaccine advocates often have the veneer of scientific sophistication, but to those knowledgeable about vaccines are easily identified as utter poppycock. Examples abound, and include this “review” article by a man named David Thrower is, and every “scientific review” published by, for example, Age of Autism.

I can’t remember how many times that, while “debating” in misc.health.alternative, I would have a study quoted to me as supporting an antivaccination or other alternative medicine viewpoint and find that, when I actually took the trouble to look up the study and download the PDF of the actual article rather than just reading the abstract (which is all most lay people have access to and therefore all they read), I would find a far more nuanced and reasonable point or even that the article didn’t support what the altie was saying. One other aspect that often comes into play is an extreme distrust of conventional medicine and/or the government such that few individual studies that question the safety of vaccines are given far more weight in their minds than the many more studies that show vaccines to be extraordinarily safe or large metanalyses. Certainly this is one reason why the infamous Wakefield study, despite being shoddily designed and now thoroughly discredited, keeps rearing its ugly head again and again and continues to be cited by antivaccination activists as strong evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism. Basically, what is happening here is that highly intelligent and motivated people can construct arguments that seem better to the uninformed.

One thing that must be remembered about motivated reasoning is that we as skeptics and supporters of science-based medicine must remember that, as human beings, we are by no means immune to this effect. Indeed, as Mooney points out, citing recent research, it’s quite possible that reasoning is a better tool for winning arguments than it is for finding the truth, and when motivated reasoning combine with the echo chamber effect of modern social groups bound together by the Internet and like-minded media, the result can be disastrous for science:

But individuals–or, groups that are very like minded–may go off the rails when using reasoning. The confirmation bias, which makes us so good at seeing evidence to support our views, also leads us to ignore contrary evidence. Motivated reasoning, which lets us quickly pull together the arguments and views that support what we already believe, makes us impervious to changing our minds. And groups where everyone agrees are known to become more extreme in their views after “deliberating”–this is the problem with much of the blogosphere.

Actually, I’m constantly asking myself when I’m writing one of these logorrheic gems of analytic brilliance if I really am being analytically brilliant or am I being selectively analytically brilliant in order to bolster my pre-existing beliefs and values? In other words, am I doing from the other viewpoint the same things that anti-vaccine zealots, for example, do when they cherry pick and misrepresent studies in order to support their beliefs that vaccines cause autism? Of course, that’s where our readers come in, as does the fact that I (and, I have no doubt, every other SBM blogger) frequently ask myself that very question. As Richard Feynman famously said, “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.” Science is simply a method for minimizing the chance that you will fool yourself. To say “I saw it with my own eyes” is not enough, but that is what our brains are hard-wired to believe.

That’s one reason why I’m far less concerned about winning over committed ideologues. Although such a task is possible and people do change their minds, sometimes even about things very important to them, for the most part expecting to win over someone like J.B. Handley, Jenny McCarthy, or Barbara Loe Fisher is a fool’s errand. The people who need to be educated are the ones who are either on the fence or otherwise susceptible to pseudoskeptical, sophisticated-sounding arguments from denialists because they do not understand science or the issues. Although it will by no means be easy, such a goal is at least achievable.”
SBM

“At the end of the day, it is going to take a tragedy in a high profile doctor or politician for the VACCINE-ILLNESS CONNECTION (not just autism) to get serious examination. I have a friend in Maine who is a nephrologist. She consults on patients who need dialysis. Just by asking the question, ‘When was your last vaccine?’ she has found nine patients – most with previously normal kidney function – who developed acute renal failure within two to 28 days of the shot. All but one needed kidney dialysis. All but two have recovered, but to the tune of more than $200,000 in hospital bills — EACH. We pay and pay and pay for vaccines.

We pay drug companies to make them.

We pay doctors and public health officials to give them.

We pay astronomical health insurance rates to cover the health care costs of the illnesses they cause.

Vaccines drive the industry…”

http://drtenpenny.com/

More anecdotes?
You want anecdotes Phill?
Try these …

http://whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html

Example: anti vaccers cause mother to murder her child.
“Influenced by those who believe childhood vaccines might cause autism, Katie’s mother felt extreme guilt over vaccinating the autistic child. This led to a depression, and the death of the child at her mother’s hands. “

”
The evidence is in. The scientific community has reached a clear consensus that vaccines don’t cause autism. There is no controversy.” So begins an in-depth discussion of the vaccines-cause-autism nonsense penned by “SkepDoc” Harriet Hall in a recent issue of eSkeptic. It is a must read for any thinking person who has been baffled by the likes of Jenny McCarthy and her unconscionable sponsors, boyfriend Jim Carrey (who bankrolls McCarthy’s dangerous ignorance) and Oprah Winfrey (who provides McCarthy with television time so that she can endanger the lives of even more children).”

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.co.nz/2009/06/vaccines-do-not-cause-autism.html

”
After analyzing over 1,000 research papers, a report issued by the IOM (Institute of Medicine) found no evidence linking vaccines to autism or type 1 diabetes risk, and very few other health problems caused or clearly linked to vaccines. According to a committee of experts who reviewed the scientific studies, convincing evidence was found of 14 health outcomes associated with vaccines, including fainting, brain inflammation and seizures, however, their occurrences were found to be very rare.”

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/233438.php

“. The U.S. Court of Federal Claims has rejected claims in three test cases that tried to show that vaccines preserved with thimerosal contributed to the development of autism.

The ruling comes a year after the same court rejected the claims of three other test cases. In those cases, experts failed to convince the court that the combined effects of the MMR vaccine and thimerosal caused autism.

 
Thimerosal contains mercury, which can affect brain development if kids are exposed to large amounts.

But vaccines preserved with thimerosal contain only tiny amounts of mercury. And numerous studies from around the world have found no evidence that autism is more common in kids exposed to thimerosal through vaccines.”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010/03/court_vaccines_dont_cause_aust.html

“A federal court ruled over the weekend that a formerly common additive in vaccines does not cause autism. So will that be enough to prevent a new era of deadly but preventable epidemics?

The federal “vaccines court” ruled in three different cases that a mercury-containing additive, thimerosal, that was in many vaccine until 2001, does not cause autism. This comes on the heels of another recent decision that the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine also doesn’t cause the disease.

Last month, the British medical journal, the Lancet, withdrew a controversial 1998 article that had claimed the measles disease from the MMR vaccine could leak and cause autism. That article was the bedrock of the anti-vaccine movement. The MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal, and rates of autism in children have continued to increase since thimerosal was removed from almost all childhood vaccinations in 2001. (Note: updated for accuracy.)”
http://io9.com/5493821/its-official-vaccines-dont-cause-autism

” I like to deal with anti-vaccine pseudoscience using at minimum a .50 caliber machine gun.”
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-final-nail-in-the-mercury-autism-hypothesis/

Garry .. this is from a previous post of mine ..

Some young victims of the scientific bull shit ..

GlaxoSmithKline Fined Over Illegal Vaccine Experiments Killing 14 Babies
Anthony Gucciardi
Activist Post

Vaccine and drug giant GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) has been fined 400,000 pesos (around the equivalent of $93,000) by an Argentinian judge for killing 14 babies during illegal lab vaccine trials that were conducted between 2007 and 2008.

In addition to killing the children and experimenting with human beings, the judge asserted that the corporation actually falsified parental authorizations so that babies could participate without legitimate parental permission.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/01/whistleblower-scientist-accuses-british-medical-journal-of-institutional-research-misconduct.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ageofautism+%28AGE+OF+AUTISM%29

Whistleblower Scientist Accuses British Medical Journal of Institutional Research Misconduct

Actions of BMJ Editor and Reporter “More Tabloid News than Science” According to Dr. David Lewis, and “a Genuine Threat to Public Health”

WhistleWASHINGTON, D.C., Jan. 9, 2012 (SEND2PRESS NEWSWIRE) — Dr. David Lewis, internationally known whistleblower and respected expert on institutional fraud, released a report today calling for a formal investigation into the practices of the British Medical Journal (BMJ), and specifically into the actions of its editor, Dr. Fiona Godlee, and Brian Deer, a reporter she hired to write a series of articles which appeared in the journal beginning on January 4, 2011.

The BMJ articles accuse Dr. Andrew Wakefield of committing scientific fraud in a 1998 Lancet publication he co-authored that brought global attention to a link many parents and physicians suspect may exist between autism and children who are genetically predisposed to adverse reactions from the Measles/Mumps/Rubella (MMR) vaccine.

The BMJ, Deer, and Godlee alleged that Wakefield fabricated a diagnosis of colitis in most of the 12 children described in The Lancet article — calling Wakefield’s work an “elaborate fraud” intended to create an “MMR scare” — so Wakefield could profit from a patent related to his research.

“Documents recovered from Dr. Wakefield’s files during my investigation at the National Whistleblowers Center (NWC) – http://www.researchmisconduct.org – reveal that a pathologist associated with the study, Dr. Andrew Anthony, interpreted a number of the children’s biopsies as evidence of colitis,” explained Dr. Lewis. “Altogether, the evidence contained in Wakefield’s files suggested to me that the BMJ’s fraud theory was more tabloid news than science.”

According to documents Lewis filed with Sir John Tooke, Vice-Provost for Health at the University College London (UCL) where The Lancet study was done, BMJ Editor Godlee responded to the Lewis revelations by “cherry-picking the evidence and coming up with a grand conspiracy theory involving ‘institutional research misconduct’. Alleged fraudsters now include University College London (UCL) administrators, the Royal Free Hospital, and all 13 co-authors of the Lancet study.”

UCL President Malcolm Grant notified Lewis that, because his charges were “so serious,” he urged Dr. Lewis to inform Dr. Godlee and Deer “at the earliest opportunity.”

Lewis also reports that Godlee has previously acknowledged the BMJ Group receives funding from the two manufacturers of the MMR vaccine, Merck and GlaxoSmithKline, and has testified in a Parliamentary inquiry that peer-reviewed medical journals are “the marketing arm of the pharmaceutical industry.” Lewis added: “Apparently scientists who question certain government policies and industry practices can be destroyed for a price. If so, this kind of tabloid science poses a genuine threat to public health.”

On January 3, 2012, Dr. Wakefield filed suit against the BMJ and Brian Deer ( http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/01/04/BritMedJ.pdf ). Last September, Columbia University published a major study supporting the link Dr. Wakefield established between autism and enterocolitis ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3174969/ ).

Lewis Investigation Available Online:

Dr. Lewis’ detailed investigation of the BMJ series in question can be downloaded from the following URL:

http://www.yousendit.com/download/T2dkSmJ5SWVOQnhBSXRVag .

Expires: January 19, 2012 09:40 PST

About Dr. David Lewis:

Dr. David Lewis, a member of the NWC Board of Directors and Director of its Research Misconduct Project, is a former senior-level research microbiologist for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He was the only EPA scientist to ever publish first-authored research articles in Lancet and Nature. His research published in Lancet and Nature Medicine on the inadequacy of CDC guidelines to prevent transmission of HIV in dentistry prompted the current heat sterilization standard for dentistry in the mid-1990s. His environmental research published in Nature received the Science Achievement Award by the EPA Administrator in 2000. Editors at Annals of Internal Medicine rated him in the top 10 percent of reviewers in 2010. His accomplishments in medical and environmental research have been widely covered in professional, scientific and popular publications and broadcasts including Nature, Science, Lancet, JAMA, National Geographic, Reader’s Digest, Voice of America, Paul Harvey News, Time, Newsweek, U.S. News & World Report, Forbes, NY Times, Washington Post, London Times, NPR’s All Things Considered, PBS Healthweek, PBS Technopolitics, CBS Evening News, ABC’s Primetime Live, and BBC Panorama.

Dr. Lewis’s direct contact information: (706) 296 3675

LewisDaveL@aol.com .

About the BMJ:

The British Medical Journal is a highly regarded, peer-reviewed scientific journal sent to more than 100,000 doctors internationally, many of whom have stakes in vaccine usage.

And the shit rolls on ,, if this so called medical science was as it proclaims to be .. then why do they engage in the lying and cheating .. This behaviour is not a one off .. it is endemic .. rotten to the core .. hopefully some day these medical gangsters will be testing the breaking strain of good old fashioned rope.

I Found The Quackbuster Money Trail…

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Monday, January 9th, 2012

For years I have been monitoring the operations of a group that
originally called itself the “Quackbusters.”

The name was a play on the popularity of the movie “Ghostbusters.”
The reality is that there was, and is now, an organized conspiracy,
centered in the US, to control, through information manipulation,
certain aspects of health care.

The plot has always been pretty much the same – the attacking and
discrediting of people, organizations, ideas, concepts, etc., that
challenge the highly profitable, but dangerous, and ineffective, US
health care system. In short they are simply a misinformation
campaign.

The Quackbusters have had limited success in their campaigns, usually
fooling only the least informed of the population. But they have
caused significant damage to that same population in those areas
where they have been successful – like Autism – where they have
successfully, so far, prevented an official understanding of the
cause of Autism, and hence, prevented solution of the problem of
Autism and other Neurological issues.

My regular readers know that for years, I have taken on, in my
professional Crisis Management Consultant role, this so-called
“Quackbuster” operation with success. I am, without doubt “Public
Enemy Number One” in quackbuster land. I also encourage, and support,
others to deal with this conspiracy up front, rather than just
focusing on defending against the attacks. To me, it is important to
make the “Quackbusters,” individually, and in their conspiracy, not
just PART of the argument, but the ENTIRE argument in any case.

Has this been successful? Yes, it has, for the result is that the
older version of the quackbuster conspiracy, for the most part, is
completely gone in more ways than one: (1) the original players have
disappeared into the woodwork, so to speak, and (2) their
replacements, for the most part, are so scared of being personally
“outed” they HIDE behind fake names, fake identities, etc.

I’ll explain this power shift in the quackbuster ranks, and how it
all works, below. Why? Because it is time to shut this whole
operation down and see about putting their key people where they
belong.

Constantly I am asked, referring to what is commonly called the
Quackbuster operation, “Who’s paying these people to do this stuff?

Well, now I know the answer to that question, and shortly, after some
simple reading, so will you…

To read the entire article click on http://www.bolenreport.com or
http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_articles/Doctor%27s-Data-v-Barrett/moneytrail.htm

Tim Bolen

The latest article by Tim Bolen is a real eye opener, so much so that I am now convinced as to who Gary is, and who pays him to promote the nonsense that he has been posting.

To read the entire article click on http://www.bolenreport.com or
http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_articles/Doctor%27s-Data-v-Barrett/moneytrail.htm

I am not paid to post here. Why do you keep saying that? Are you feeling guilty about the payments you receive from Big CAM ?

You seem to have the typical conspiracy loon attitude. When some one disagrees with you, then they must be part of the conspiracy. Any evidence they produce is also more evidence that the conspiracy is widespread.

There is an old saying … Just because you are paranoid it doesn’t mean the aliens haven’t shoved a probe up your arse.

Oh but you are garry boy .. you write just like them, and you post so much of those creatures stuff so I know who your instructors are ..

Bolens article was quite instructive especially about the great Randy pandies sexual life .. and the source of his money .. paah!

You are not telling the truth Ivor, but then that is only to be expected of someone so delusional that he thinks homeopathy works.

Now I must go and align my aura with my feng shui and get my chakra straightened in line with the moon.

Ulp, gulp! Those are the hallmarks of the great Stupor Man in a second coming .. this incarnation will be virulent .. it will be hatched in a condom, hanging on a sun baked razor wire fence.

We must at all costs stop it from aligning its aura with the Feng Shui. We must all pray for a Lunar Eclipse and foil this dastardly chakra movement.

If we fail, we get Obumma as Prime Minister and Govenor General! .. Obumma? oh well he is bound to be an improvement on John Key .. We can get rid of John Key?

Ok you guys leave the condom on the razor wire.

“Oh but you are garry boy .. you write just like them, and you post so much of those creatures stuff so I know who your instructors are ..”

You have as much evidence for that as you have for the efficacy of homeopathy, ie, NONE.

Gary,

I have already posted a couple of articles covering the matter, your comment seem to prove that you suffer from defective reading brain deficit, I do not think they prescribe Ritalin for that .. the only known treatment is a stun gun applied to the left temple in an attempt to kick start the cerebral cortex.

To help you find the posts .. first scroll back and look for the following …..

The study, replicated in four different laboratories in Europe, found that the highly diluted solutions worked just like histamine. This kind of research will do far more for the credibility of homeopathy than any number of RCTs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16036166

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html?page=2

=============================================

Medical conditions with positive balance of evidence in homeopathy
Systematic reviews and/or randomised controlled trials (rcts)

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/

The Pharmacologist who had conducted the original research said,

“We are,” Ennis says in her paper, “unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.” If the results turn out to be real, she says, the implications are profound: we may have to rewrite physics and chemistry.”

Do take a look old chap, but wait until you have finished breakfast that will save you having to clean the keyboard and screen of porridge and bits of chewed toast.

I think a Pharmacologists qualifications outrank your BSc in knitting.

I do not know if the reader is familiar with Tim Bolan or not .. but he is dynamite .. he smashed Barrett the Parrot of Quackbusters infamy (in Court)as well as a few of the lesser luminaries in the Pharmageddon Scam.

Below is a cut and paste from his website .. Millions of Health Freedom Fighters .. sign up for his news letter it is always well worth reading ..
=============================

It’s Deer Hunting season in Texas.

No, I’m not talking about hunting White Tail Deer along the Milk River in West Texas, or Mule Deer anywhere in the Texas Panhandle. So, put that key to the gun cabinet back in your pocket.

White Tail and Mule are NOT the deer being hunted in Texas in THIS story. Nobody is going to be wearing camouflage, and we aren’t going to have to hike eleven miles before dawn, carrying a sixty pound pack.

Today we are after the imported Deer variety, the Brian.

We’ll be doing our hunting in Downtown Austin, Texas, the State Capitol. Specifically, we’ll be centering our story in the Travis County Courthouse (pictured on the right), where, unless you are a member of law enforcement, guns are pretty much prohibited.

But, make no mistake, Brian Deer, here, is under the gun.

The hero of our story today is a guy I haven’t yet met – Andy Wakefield, who just happened to be a resident of Austin, Texas on January 5th, 2011, the day that Brian Deer’s article “Secrets of the MMR Scare: How the Case Against the MMR Vaccine Was Fixed” was published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ). It was accompanied by two editorials by Fiona Godlee, Editor of the BMJ titled “Wakefield’s Article Linking MMR Vaccine and Autism Was Fraudulent,” and “Editor’s Choice: The Fraud Behind the MMR Scare.”

Yup, I’m talking, here, about the Andy Wakefield, from Britain, famous for suggesting that there might be a connection between the MMR vaccine and Autism, and suggested, to the horror of the vaccine industry, that further study was warranted. That same Andy Wakefield we see, officially, as Andrew J. Wakefield MB., BS., BRCS, formerly of Great Britain – but now a Texan.

It looks as though our Andy found a law firm in Austin, Texas called DiNovo Price Ellwanger & Hardy LLP who assigned to Andy their top business litigator Partner William M. Parrish (Bill), who, for the last thirty years has specialized in intellectual property issues and complex business litigation.

On January 3rd, 2012, a few days before the Statute of Limitations could run out, Bill Parrish filed, for his client Andrew J. Wakefield MB., BS., BRCS (Andy) a lawsuit in Travis County, Texas against Brian Deer, the British Medical Journal, Fiona Godlee. The lawsuit claims that:

“This defamation lawsuit arises, in part, out of the publication on or about January 5, 2011 and thereafter, in the British Medical Journal, of an article authored for the BMJ by Brian Deer, titled Secrets of the MMR Scare (Exhibit A) and accompanying editorials by the BMJ’s editor, Fiona Godlee (Exhibit B 1-2). Defendants’ article and editorials, distributed to subscribers in Texas and which form the basis of Plaintiff’s claims, contained unfair, incorrect, inaccurate and unjust criticisms of findings previously reported by Dr. Wakefield and 12 other co-authors. More significantly, Defendants accused Dr. Wakefield of fraud and of fraudulently and intentionally manipulating and falsifying data and diagnoses in connection with a clinical paper he co-authored called Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children, originally published in the medical journal The Lancet in 1998 (the “Lancet Paper”). Defendants’ false and defamatory allegations have been widely disseminated by Defendants through the BMJ and other sources since their original publication.”

Wait a minute. Didn’t all this happen in Britain? Shouldn’t a lawsuit be filed there, not in Texas? Nope. The Jurisdiction is properly in Texas for the reason stated just below. Brian Deer, and the other Defendants, will have to grab their checkbooks, jump on an airplane, fly to Austin, Texas, and find themselves an attorney firm to represent them in this action. Why? Read this:

“This Court has personal jurisdiction over the Defendants pursuant to the Texas Long-Arm Statute and consistent with the requirements of Due Process because the Defendants purposefully availed themselves of the privileges, benefits, advantages, and profits of conducting their affairs in the State of Texas by directing a significant and regular flow of publications, including periodicals, journals, articles, subscriptions, and electronic media to institutional and
individual residents of this State. Defendants further committed a tort, which is the subject of this suit, in whole or in part, in this State, to wit, authoring, editing, and approving articles and making statements with knowledge or intent that said articles be published and statements be made and directed to residents of this State, including, but not limited to Plaintiff at his residence in Austin, Texas. Said articles, publications and statements contained false and defamatory
allegations about Plaintiff Dr. Wakefield and his affairs, business and reputation in the State of Texas as detailed herein.”

This is going to be fun. Why? This case is NOT going to be a Kangaroo Court conducted on behalf of the Vaccine Construction like the so-called hearings in front of the British General Medical Council (BMC). This will be a REAL Court, with REAL rules, and a requirement for REAL evidence standards. Frankly, neither Brian Deer, Fiona Godlee, nor the British Medical Journal (BMJ) stand a chance in this forum. So far they controlled the battlefield. Now they stand in a minefield, and Andy Wakefield has the minefield actuator button in his hand.

Details of the case…

You can read the whole Texas filing by clicking here. Before you do that let me give you a few highlights. For a short read, click here to read the “Demand Letter” sent to the British Medical Journal, Brian Deer, and Fiona Godlee on November 10th, 2011. The letter lays out the basis of the claim against the Defendants and demands retraction of the original articles and protection of the information relied on. Of course, the Defendants failed to respond. Hence the lawsuit.

You can read the Plaintiff’s Exhibits by clicking here.

Some highlights of the filing that will make you tingle:

“Defendant BMJ Publishing Group LTD which does business as The British Medical Journal, BMJ Group, and BMJ (hereinafter collectively “BMJ”) is a British limited liability company organized under the laws of the United Kingdom that may be served with process pursuant to Section 10(a) of the Hague Convention by serving this Original Petition via international registered mail as follows: BMJ Publishing Group LTD, BMA House, Tavistock Square, London, WC1H 9JP, United Kingdom. Issuance of Citation for BMJ Publishing Group LTD d/b/a The British Medical Journal, BMJ Group and BMJ is requested at this time.

Defendant Brian Deer is a citizen and resident of the United Kingdom who may be served with process pursuant to Section 10(a) of the Hague Convention on the Service Abroad of Judicial and Extra-Judicial Documents in Civil and Commercial Matters (“Hague Convention”) via international registered mail as follows: Brian Deer, 65 Herne Hill House, Railton Road, London, SE24 OEF, United Kingdom. Issuance of Citation for Brian Deer is requested at this time.

Defendant Dr. Fiona Godlee is a citizen and resident of the United Kingdom who may be served with process pursuant to Section 10(a) of the Hague Convention via international registered mail as follows: Dr. Fiona Godlee, BMA House, Tavistock Square, London, WC1H 9JP, United Kingdom. Issuance of Citation for Dr. Fiona Godlee is requested at this time.

Venue in this defamation lawsuit is mandatory in Travis County, Texas pursuant to TEX. CIV. PRAC. & REM. CODE §15.017, because Travis County was the residence of Plaintiff, Dr. Wakefield, at the time of the accrual of the causes of action alleged herein.

3.2 The amount in controversy is within the jurisdictional range appropriate to this Court’s subject matter jurisdiction.”

According to Texas law, Brian Deer, the BMJ, and Fiona Godlee only have a limited amount of time to respond to the lawsuit before Wakefield files for a Default Judgment. I don’t know what those time limits are yet, as I just got the initial information last night, and haven’t been able to interview the attorneys yet.

But, once the Defendants are officially served with the lawsuit they must Respond with what is called an “Answer” in Texas. If they don’t and a Default Judgment is asked for and Ordered by the Court, then the Court will award EVERYTHING the Plaintiff Andrew Wakefield asked for. Just below is what Wakefield is seeking.

V. DEFAMATION – 5.1 Dr. Wakefield hereby brings this common law cause of action libel, slander and
defamation against Defendants based on the malicious publication of false claims about Dr. Wakefield as detailed above and incorporated by reference herein.

5.2 Each of the Defendants knowingly misrepresented facts with the purpose of making false accusations against Dr. Wakefield. These false statements were published with actual malice.

5.3 These false claims were known to be false by the Defendants at the time they were made and were made and published with the intent to cause substantial harm to Dr. Wakefield’s reputation, to open him up to scorn in his community, and to damage his livelihood.

5.4 The false statements, intended by Defendants to injure Dr. Wakefield in his trade and profession, constitute defamation per se, therefore damages are presumed from the publication of these false statements.

5.5 Alternatively, these statements, intended by Defendants to injure Dr. Wakefield in his trade and profession, constitute defamation per quod.

5.6 The malicious publication of the false statements about Dr. Wakefield detailed above have caused and continue to cause actual general and special damages to Dr. Wakefield, including, injury to character and reputation, humiliation, injury to feelings, and loss of earning capacity.

VI. EXEMPLARY DAMAGES – 6.1 Because Defendants acted with actual malice, the Plaintiff is entitled to recover exemplary damages as defined by the Texas Civil Practice & Remedies Code § 43.001, et seq.

VII. DECLARATORY JUDGMENT – 7.1 In addition, Plaintiff seeks a declaratory judgment that the Defendants’ published false and misleading statements regarding Dr. Wakefield and/or the Lancet Paper.

VIII. -PRAYER – Dr. Wakefield hereby prays for a trial by jury as to all disputed issues of fact, and upon findings appropriate, further prays for judgment from this Court against the Defendants for: nominal damages, actual and compensatory damages, special damages, including injury to reputation and character, injury to feelings, humiliation, loss of earning capacity, exemplary damages pursuant to TEX. CIV. PRAC. & REM. CODE §41.001, et. seq., declaratory relief, costs and expenses, prejudgment and post-judgment interest as allowed by law, and for such other and further relief to which he may be justly entitled.

In short, Brian Deer, and the BMJ have no choice but to show up in Texas and fight it out. If they don’t it is likely to be the end of the BMJ, and Brian Deer, for Britain honors claims found in the US Courts. There would, in fact, be a legal finding that NONE of what Brian Deer said was true.

Of course the Autism Community already knows that…

Smile here…

And, stay tuned.

Tim Bolen – Consumer Advocate

““We are,” Ennis says in her paper, “unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.” If the results turn out to be real, she says, the implications are profound: we may have to rewrite physics and chemistry.””

Note she say ” if the results turn out to be real”.
Well they weren’t and we don’t need to rewrite physics and chemistry.

You see, in real science, the results have to be confirmed by many other reputable researchers doing even better designed experiments, and guess what? As the studies become larger and better designed the effects of homeopathy disappear. Positive results in small studies are usually just fluctuations you would expect to happen by chance. Face it…homeopathy doesn’t work. You are deluded.

You seem happy enough, Ivor, to use the computer to spread your nonsense. The computer only made possible by science.

Garry .. typical hasbara 101 .. cherrry pick the posting .. it also said that 4 other labs have duplicated her findings. I reproduce the article again at the end so that anyone with common sense can see.

Of course science is not going to rewrite any of its bull shit because there is too much involved so we have yet another cover up .. Just like they tried to do with Dr Wakefield .. you have read that Garry ?????

The article prior to that one lists over 50 pubmed entries concerning Homeopathy I note you ignored that .. but thats how you were taught to operate eh ? Oh well at 5 cents per post you can supplement your dole money and feed your kids now.

Building a computer does not equate to killing and maiming millions of babies by injecting them with filth before they have grown an immune system.

The 14 babies that they killed in South America with their dripping needles are only a fraction .. those were just the ones where the autopsy proof was irrefutable.

The story in Africa is even more horrendous .. and the very fact that these scientific monsters should suggest that the child should be withheld from its mothers milk so that the needle merchants could go to work on them is totally lacking in any humanity or even common sense.

It was proven that the immunity conferred by mothers milk was interfering with the vaccine.

Of course it interfered with the vaccine .. what a stupid thing to say.

We had to have another long winded statistical analysis .. and in that long winded process more kids were dying and continue to die whilst these scientific cretins argue about the matter.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html?page=2

4 Belfast homeopathy results

MADELEINE Ennis, a pharmacologist at Queen’s University, Belfast, was the scourge of homeopathy. She railed against its claims that a chemical remedy could be diluted to the point where a sample was unlikely to contain a single molecule of anything but water, and yet still have a healing effect. Until, that is, she set out to prove once and for all that homeopathy was bunkum.

In her most recent paper, Ennis describes how her team looked at the effects of ultra-dilute solutions of histamine on human white blood cells involved in inflammation. These “basophils” release histamine when the cells are under attack. Once released, the histamine stops them releasing any more. The study, replicated in four different labs, found that homeopathic solutions – so dilute that they probably didn’t contain a single histamine molecule – worked just like histamine. Ennis might not be happy with the homeopaths’ claims, but she admits that an effect cannot be ruled out.

So how could it happen? Homeopaths prepare their remedies by dissolving things like charcoal, deadly nightshade or spider venom in ethanol, and then diluting this “mother tincture” in water again and again. No matter what the level of dilution, homeopaths claim, the original remedy leaves some kind of imprint on the water molecules. Thus, however dilute the solution becomes, it is still imbued with the properties of the remedy.

You can understand why Ennis remains sceptical. And it remains true that no homeopathic remedy has ever been shown to work in a large randomised placebo-controlled clinical trial. But the Belfast study (Inflammation Research, vol 53, p 181) suggests that something is going on. “We are,” Ennis says in her paper, “unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.” If the results turn out to be real, she says, the implications are profound: we may have to rewrite physics and chemistry.

Well the results came in and her results were duplicated in 4 other labs .. but we do not hear about that any more do we Garry .. I wonder why? Ennis is a courageous woman and could have ended up floating in Belfast Lough for telling the truth.

Oh btw I am told that you will not have to go through with the stun gun routine every morning, if you agree to a lobotomy whilst you still have some cerebral cortex to remove.

http://naturalsociety.com/satire-mercury-deficiency-threatens-global-health/

Ivor, you’ve probably already seen this one, but just in case… after all, now that the vaccine issue has been put to rest (with the Cochrane review of flu vaccines just one example of many posted by others here), we may as well do the same with silly, unscientific skepticism regarding homeopathy, with this very nicely written article with some lovely quotes from those in the nobel prize arena.

My favourite nobel prize winner quotes (applied to homeopathy): ‘many scientists today suffer from “pathological disbelief;” that is, they maintain an unscientific attitude that is embodied by the statement “even if it were true I wouldn’t believe it.’

and

“The idea that water can have a memory can be readily refuted by any one of a number of easily understood, invalid arguments.”

http://www.naturalnews.com/031210_Luc_Montagnier_Homeopathy.html

Cheers

Check out the comment about your precious Cochrane review at the end of the following…..

There have been many cases now of big companies or organizations, or wealthy individuals, threatening to sue or actually suing a blogger for libel. The most famous case is that of Simon Singh who was sued by the British Chiropractic Association over comments he made in an article. Simon braved through the expensive and exhaustive legal process (which is especially onerous in England), but he is not just a lone blogger. He is a successful author and was writing for the Guardian. Eventually the BCA was forced to drop the case – but only after the blogging community rallied behind Simon, magnifying his criticisms of the BCA by orders of magnitude. By all accounts it was a PR disaster.

The blogging community as a whole is rather passionate about this issue. We exist on the premise of free and open public discourse about important issues. At SBM we take on many controversial issues and we don’t pull our punches when criticizing what we see as pseudoscience in medicine. So of course we take notice when a large company tries to bully a blogger to silence their legitimate criticism.

According to the BMJ this has happened yet again – this time the international homeopathy producer, Boiron, is threatening a lone Italian blogger because he dared to criticize their product, Oscillococcinum. The blogger, Samuele Riva, wrote two articles on his blog, blogzero.it, criticizing what our own Mark Crislip has called “oh-so-silly-coccinum.”  The blog is entirely in Italian, but he is maintaining a page in English with updates on the Boiron vs Blogzero affair.

Criticizing homeopathy is always fun, because it is at the extreme absurd end of the silly pseudoscience spectrum, even among some stiff competition. But now homeopathy has a corporate face in Boiron – a large multinational corporation based in France. Boiron is the largest manufacturer of homeopathic products in the world and the second largest manufacturer of over-the-counter products in France.

What they are doing to this small blogger, in my opinion, is nothing less than corporate thuggery. They are using their resources and their corporate lawyers to try to silence completely legitimate criticism of their pseudoscientific products. Of course, they will only succeed in magnifying that criticism.

For example, Riva suggested that Boiron’s oscillococcinum has no active ingredient. Well, let’s see- the company lists the active ingredient in this product as “Anas barbariae hepatis et cordis extractum 200CK HPUS.” The “200C” means that the listed ingredient was diluted with a 1:100 dilution 200 times. Serial dilution is a funny thing – a 200c dilution is the equivalent of diluting 1ml of original ingredient into a volume of water that is the size of the known universe. This is far far beyond the point where there is any reasonable chance of there being even a single molecule of original ingredient left.

So Riva was completely justified (as have many other critics) in saying that Boiron’s 200c product has no active ingredient. In fact it is deceptive to list something that has been diluted 200C as an “active ingredient.”

Not that it matters in this case, because the original ingredient is a pseudoscience unto itself. Mark Crislip gives the full details, here is his summary:

In the 1919 flu epidemic a physician who did not understand that artifacts on the slide, probably bubbles, move randomly due to Brownian motion. Looking at the tissues of flu patients with a microscope, he found what he thought was not only the cause of influenza, but the cause of all diseases: small cocci (round balls) that oscillated under the microscope. He found these wiggling bubbles in all the tissues of all the ill people he examined and thought he discovered the true cause of all disease. Sigh. Yet another cause of all illness. He is the only person, before or since, to see these oscillating cocci. Hence the name.

That’s right, oscillococcinum does not even exist – essentially Boiron takes fairy dust and then dilutes it out of (non)existence. The “anas barbariea hepatis” is basically duck liver, which is supposed to contain the most concentrated nonexistent oscillococcinum. It’s a pseudoscience trifecta.

Boiron claims that their product treats the symptoms of flu. What does the evidence show? (Yes, there is evidence – someone bothered to test whether diluted fairy dust actually works)? Well, this is yet another  interesting story. Oscillococcinum was at the center of another embarrassing controversy, this one involving the Cochrane Collaboration. They published a Cochrane review of Oscillococcinum for the flu, and the authors concluded:

Though promising, the data were not strong enough to make a general recommendation to use Oscillococcinum for first-line treatment of influenza and influenza-like syndromes. Further research is warranted but the required sample sizes are large. Current evidence does not support a preventative effect of Oscillococcinum-like homeopathic medicines in influenza and influenza-like syndromes.

This review became the poster child for what is wrong with Cochrane’s particular application of evidence-based medicine (EBM). Notice that the evidence is essentially negative, but with some positive studies – which is what we expect when studying a fancy placebo because of researcher and publication bias. But the authors concluded that the treatment is “promising” and “further research is warranted.” An SBM review of the same data would come to a very different conclusion – the data is what we would expect from an ineffective treatment. Further, the highly implausible nature of the treatment (on several levels) warrants a conclusion that it does not work, it holds no promise, and not another dime of precious research money should be wasted chasing this fantasy.

Eventually the Cochrane review was withdrawn. We interpreted this as a minor victory for SBM, although we have no way of knowing what role, if any, our criticism played in the decision to withdraw the review.

Conclusion

I hope Boiron does draw a line in the sand over their oscillococcinum product, and that it becomes the center piece of a broader public discussion about homeopathy. Most of the public does not understand what homeopathy actually is. They think it means “natural” or “herbal” medicine. They have no idea that homeopathy is about taking fanciful ingredients with a dubious connection to the symptoms in the first place, and then diluting them into oblivion, then placing a drop of the pure water that remains and placing it on a sugar pill. The resultant pill is then supposed to contain the magic vibrations of the original substance.

This rank pseudoscience, which has no place in 21st century medicine, is the business of Boiron. Let’s see them try to defend themselves and their products. Let’s see them harass bloggers and those who are just trying to expose the public to the truth. Let’s see them argue in public how air bubbles in duck liver fantastically diluted can treat the flu.

On 20 October 2010, Harriet A. Hall responded specifically to these claims by homeopaths: “Nope. Sorry, guys. It doesn’t. In fact, its findings are inconsistent with homeopathic theory… Homeopaths who believe Montagnier’s study supports homeopathy are only demonstrating their enormous capacity for self-deception.” She went on to analyze the studies and pointed out a number of flaws, stating: “…even assuming the results are valid, they tend to discredit homeopathy, not support it…Homeopathy is a system of clinical treatment that can only be validated by in vivo clinical trials.”[27]
In a 24 December 2010 Science magazine interview entitled “French Nobelist Escapes ‘Intellectual Terror’ to Pursue Radical Ideas in China”, he was questioned about his research and plans. In the interview he stated that Jacques Benveniste, whose controversial homeopathic work had been discredited, was “a modern Galileo”. When asked if he wasn’t “worried that your colleagues will think you have drifted into pseudo-science?”, he replied “No, because it’s not pseudoscience. It’s not quackery. These are real phenomena which deserve further study.” He also mentioned that his applications for funding had been turned down and that he was leaving his home country to set up shop in China so he could escape what he called the “intellectual terror” which he had been told had prevented others from publishing their results. He believes that China’s Jiaotong University is more “open minded” to his research. There he is chairman of the editorial board[5][28] of a new journal which publishes his research.[29]
He was also questioned on his beliefs about homeopathy, to which he replied: “I can’t say that homeopathy is right in everything. What I can say now is that the high dilutions are right. High dilutions of something are not nothing. They are water structures which mimic the original molecules.” He did admit that he wasn’t working with the very high dilution levels normally used in homeopathy: “We find that with DNA, we cannot work at the extremely high dilutions used in homeopathy; we cannot go further than a 10-18 dilution, or we lose the signal. But even at 10-18, you can calculate that there is not a single molecule of DNA left. And yet we detect a signal.”[29]
A 12 January 2011 New Scientist editorial described the controversial nature of the research, while also noting how many researchers “reacted with disbelief”, with Gary Schuster comparing it to “pathological science.”[3] Biology professor PZ Myers also described it as “pathological science.” He described the paper as “one of the more unprofessional write-ups I’ve ever run across”, and criticized the publication process as having an “unbelievable turnaround” time: “another suspicious sign are the dates. This paper was submitted on 3 January 2009, revised on 5 January 2009, and accepted on 6 January 2009,” leading him to ask: “Who reviewed this, the author’s mother? Maybe someone even closer. Guess who the chairman of the editorial board is: Luc Montagnier.”[5][28]
[edit]Legal battle over patent

Bilbo .. no I had not got around to that one .. lol .. yes its game, set, and match.

Garry, Nil. Bilbo Two!

I feel it good news for the supporters (me included) of Dr Wakefield. It will be interesting to see how the ungodly Godlee and her incubus Brian Deer defend themselves.

As Tim Bolen has said .. at last a real court instead of the usual Medical Kangaroo Courts. Well the BMJ have plenty of the taxpayers money in the kitty. But Godlee is finished .. she is soiled goods.

And her boyfriend Deer is dog tucker.

Thanks Ivor, but the credit is really yours – knowing that there was someone here like yourself with an obvious interest in these topics provides the motivation to keep an eye open when doing my daily reading elsewhere. To be fair, credit also goes to Gary (and others)too, for motivating other readers to add further discussion and meaningful responses. If it was not for visitors like Gary, it is likely that some topics would peter out much, much sooner. As it is, though, you’ve been given the impetus to provide a lot of great posts, so everyone benefits (although this page is taking longer & longer to load!).

I think that sharing insights and views is very useful, especially when we remember to leave our egos and personalities out of it (and I get caught there too, I admit). At the end of the day, each will have their own opinions, which may or may not have altered over the course of discussion. I feel the ultimate objective should not be to alter the opinions of others (whether others’ opinions change or not should not matter to anyone)as that is the road to unproductive conflict whether it be at the interpersonal or national level. When we read others’ opinions and feel angry or upset (or superior – guilty as charged!), then it is a sure sign that the fragile ego has taken hold over the intellect.

The topics covered in this thread, as they stand, seem pretty well tapped out, but then, there is always so much more info available than one could ever read in the time available! (and then the threads start again with another new post!)

Cheers to all

“…….To but it bluntly, Andrew Wakefield no longer had any professional reputation to be trashed. This will be a major problem for him in any libel action, because one has to prove damage to one’s reputation to be successful in a libel suit.

All that leaves to me is one question: Why? And Why now? Not being a lawyer, I can only speculate based on what I know about the Wakefield case. Mr. Parrish must know that his client is incredibly unlikely to win this action. After all, Wakefield has already been tried and found guilty of misconduct by the British GMC and suing Brian Deer for libel, even in the plaintiff-friendly UK, backfired on him spectacularly. There’s little reason to expect that, given how well Deer has put all his ducks in a row in his reporting time and time again, Wakefield will do better in a U.S. court, where the bar for proving libel is much higher than in the UK. So, again, why is he doing this now? Let me speculate a moment. My guess is that the purpose of this libel action is to punish Brian Deer. More importantly, I’d also bet that it’s designed to give Andrew Wakefield a soapbox and a means of putting himself back into the public spotlight again, the spotlight from which he’s faded so much since one year ago. Again, he’ll be the “persecuted brave maverick doctor,” but this time he’ll be perceived as fighting back. I just hope he knows that Texas has a new anti-SLAPP law. Wakefield had better be careful.

In fact, this whole lawsuit strikes me as incredibly ill-advised, as it opens Wakefield up to discovery. Of course, it might well be that part of the motivation for the lawsuit is to subject Brian Deer, the BMJ, and Fiona” Godlee to discovery, and I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see bits of information from discovery show up on the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism; that is, if the case gets that far. If I were part of the antivaccine bloggerati at AoA, I might be worried now, because, given AoA’s campaign to discredit Brian Deer, particularly over the last year, it’s likely to be in the defense’s crosshairs. Communications between Wakefield and any AoA blogger might be subject to discovery. Any financial transaction between Generation Rescue and Andrew Wakefield could also be subject to discovery. Wakefield might think that because Deer, Godlee, and the BMJ are in the UK that they won’t engage in a full and vigorous defense to the extent of going whole hog (sorry, the lawsuit’s in Texas; I couldn’t resist) on discovery. Is Wakefield sure he wants to risk that? BMJ is part of a large company, and publishing companies tend not to take kindly to libel actions. Of course, even if the Generation Rescue/AoA/Wakefield connection isn’t a worry, everything else is. After all, everything about the Lancet paper would definitely be subject to discovery, and there’s no question about its relevance to the lawsuit.

Whatever Wakefield’s motivation, this move reeks of desperation. After all, if this was such obvious libel, why did Wakefield wait nearly a full year after the publication of Deer’s BMJ articles until filing this lawsuit? In taking this action, Wakefield is both demonstrating the characteristics of a crank (the need to silence using the courts rather than to refute using science) and showing just how far he’s fallen. In any case, I highly doubt Brian Deer has anything to worry about, other than the irritation this might cause and whether the company providing his libel insurance will go all wobbly on him. After all, the truth is an absolute defense against libel.”"
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/legal_thuggery_antivaccine_edition_andre.php

In latest vaccine marketing fraud, CDC says Gardasil shots should be ‘routine’ for boys

Monday, February 06, 2012 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer

(NaturalNews) Every male between the ages of 11 and 21 should get a Gardasil vaccine for cervical cancer, and those between the ages of 13 and 21 should also get “catch-up” shots later down the road. This is only the opinion of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), of course, which recently announced its final recommendations for the controversial vaccine.

CBS News reports that, as a followup to its earlier, but incomplete, recommendation back in the fall that boys be given HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccines in addition to girls, the CDC has now formalized its position in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, as well as in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. The agency is basically now recommending that all young men and women get the Gardasil vaccine.

The CDC announcement comes just days after Canadian health officials made a similar announcement recommending that all boys between the ages of nine and 26 in that country be jabbed with Gardasil. Together, the two announcements could potentially double profits for the vaccine, that is if enough members of the public are foolish enough to actually comply with these new recommendations.

ACIP heavily influenced by Big Pharma
Many of ACIP’s members are nominated directly by the drug industry, and often have significant financial ties to vaccine manufacturers. So it is really no surprise that ACIP has made such egregious recommendations without considering the fact that Gardasil has been shown to be medically useless for its stated purpose, and a significant threat to health in many cases.

Dr. Carol Baker, executive director of the Texas Children’s Center for Vaccine Awareness and Research, and huge proponent of vaccines, is head of ACIP, which made the recommendation. And Dr. Larry Pickering, executive secretary of ACIP and senior advisor to the director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the CDC, also has an extensive history working for groups that promote vaccines.

Thousands of young girls around the world have suffered debilitating, permanent neurological damage from getting the Gardasil series of shots. Many of them are now paralyzed as well, and suffer from chronic autoimmune disorders, extreme fatigue, and incapacitating muscle weakness, and at least 100 girls have died. If boys start getting the shot as well, you can expect a massive upswing in serious negative side effects and deaths among this segment of the population as well.

The fact of the matter is that Gardasil is a dangerous, unproven vaccine that has no place in medicine. And yet health officials are all too eager to recommend it to practically everyone as if it was some type of miracle treatment.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034886_CDC_Gardasil_boys.html#ixzz1ld8aCtxd

Dr Mary Jane is used by progressive Medical Doctors on a global basis for a very wide spectrum of disorders and particularly those considered to be iatrogenic.

Autism Spectrum Disorders
Medical Marijuana
By Dr. Mark Allan Sircus

On the very last night before my staff put my book, Medical Marijuana, into production for publication, I read an incredible story by Steve Davis about a man and his wife who “cured autism” in their daughter with cannabis. It’s not really incredible; it is exactly what one would expect.

It is important for the entire autism community to wake up and take on the cause of legalization and use of cannabis for autism spectrum disorders. If one studies the pharmacological profile of cannabinoids, it’s easy to conclude that cannabis is the ideal medicine for autistic children and others with neurological conditions. In terms of safety it makes criminals out of the doctors and psychiatrists who administer exceptionally dangerous pharmaceuticals.

Doctors told the couple that their daughter was near the most severe end of the autistic spectrum and offered little help or hope that the girl could even partially overcome the condition. “We were desperate. We got a high-CBD tincture,” said the father, referring to the marijuana compound called cannabidiol, known for its sedative rather than intoxicating effects. “We gave it to her. Within an hour, she was in deep sleep for the first time since we noticed the autism, or maybe the first time in her life.”

Medical marijuana helped their daughter calm down, have a better appetite, and relate emotionally in a warm and caring way, not typical of severely autistic children. “When the medical marijuana takes effect and she is so present and happy, I have tears in my eyes,” the girl’s mom explained. “She is beating autism. She now looks us in the eyes. She smiles. She plays with our cat. She started getting along with other kids. The autism would not let her do that before, but with the medical marijuana, she can do that.”

You can count on one hand the number of American doctors willing to recommend medical marijuana for children. Most doctors and social workers say marijuana is always bad for children, including autistic children.

I had already written about Mieko Hester-Perez who went public on television about giving medical marijuana to her autistic son Joey. She says it saved his life! I published a few years ago the words of an extremely experienced doctor in the autism area:

“It seems to me if one is going to need to use drugs, one ought to consider a relatively safe drug, like marijuana,” said Bernard Rimland, Ph.D., formerly of the Autism Research Institute. “The reports we are seeing from parents indicate that medical marijuana often works when no other treatments, drug or non-drug, have helped.”

Writing in Neuroendocrinology Letters and the European Journal of Pharmacology, Dr. Ester Fride of the Behavioral Sciences Department of Israel’s College of Judea and Samar says, “A role for the endocannabinoid system for the human infant is likely.” She notes that in animals, the endogenous cannabinoid system fulfills several important developmental functions including: embryonal implantation (which requires a temporary and localized reduction in the production of the endocannabinoid anandamide), neural development, neuroprotection, the development of memory and oral-motor skills, and the initiation of suckling in newborns.

Dr. Fride strongly recommends the use of cannabinoids in pediatric medicine. She notes that “excellent clinical results” have been reported in pediatric oncology and in case studies of children with severe neurological diseases or brain trauma, and suggests that cannabis-derived medicines could also play a role in the treatment of other childhood syndromes, including the pain and gastrointestinal inflammation associated with cystic fibrosis.

Steve Davis concluded, “Medical marijuana helped their daughter calm down, have a better appetite, and relate emotionally in a warm and caring way not typical of severely autistic children. Not only that, it was less expensive and far more effective than the pharmaceutical medicines it replaced.”

Calm down is the right description of one of the general properties of cannabis—it helps people calm down and relax and shed off some of the stress without any of the severe problems and side effects of pharmaceuticals sold for this purpose.

In case you are out of touch or have your head buried in the ground, stress is a growing problem in every corner of the globe and it affects our health enormously. Everyone is in reality needing to calm down or stay calm, because stress is heading only upward.

image

According to the National Sleep Foundation 27 percent of Americans
are having difficulty sleeping because of losing their jobs, the economy
and their own personal finances. Stress is increasing and will get
worse as the world economy contracts. Thus I recommend
magnesium chloride always be used with cannabis.

The involvement of free radicals in tissue injury induced by magnesium deficiency causes an accumulation of oxidative products in heart, liver, kidney and skeletal muscle tissue, and in red blood cells.[1] Magnesium is a crucial factor in the natural self-cleansing and detoxification responses of the body and it certainly helps people sleep better than any pharmaceutical. Nothing will de-stress one’s cells faster than raising one’s cellular magnesium levels.

Conclusion

“Because of the drug war, tens of thousands of autistic children and adults will remain locked in by autism, and unable to get a medicine that really works,” the mom says, “Closed-mindedness prevents researchers and parents from openly exploring the healing effects of medical marijuana…. a plant that gave us our daughter back.”

The closed-mindedness this mother speaks of is a silent type of violence. People would stagger under the psychological weight of knowing how horrible our institutions really are. We are a violent and vicious race and I think that statement is sustained no matter how much we all think good of ourselves. The war on drugs is just one terrifying example, and the childhood vaccination programs, in which the vast majority willingly participate, is another.

Medicine is in its darkest days and the entire human race is suffering for it. Medicine and industry made a devil’s bargain and the arrogance of professional men just gobble it up as they earn their gravy.

Dr. Mark Allan Sircus, Ac., OMD, DM (P)
Director International Medical Veritas Association
Doctor of Oriental and Pastoral Medicine
http://publications.imva.info
http://blog.imva.info
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Iodine Nuclear Toxicity Syndrome E-Book by Mark Sircus

[1] Martin, Hélène. Richert, Lysiane. Berthelot, Alain Magnesium Deficiency Induces Apoptosis in Primary Cultures of Rat Hepatocytes.* Laboratoire de Physiologie, et Laboratoire de Biologie Cellulaire, UFR des Sciences Médicales et Pharmaceutiques, Besançon, France. 2003 The American Society for Nutritional Sciences J. Nutr. 133:2505-2511, August 2003

I won’t clog up the system with huge cut and pastes like some idiots do. Just follow this link and get so knowledge. Knowledge is power. The power not to be ripped off by SCAM.
Supliments Complimentary Alternative Medicine.

Remember, alternative medicine provides the alternative to health.

Don’t be a loser … Avoid SCAM like the plague.

Something for the crackpot creationists to come to grips with…

http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/top-10-evolution-myths.pdf

Good luck Ivor .

BTW, I believe in intelligent design. My iPad is a great example. Note however that the designer was designed by natural selection. In fact, intelligence itself evolved by natural selection. Except for Ivor whose intelligence is on a par with a London sewer rat.
Sorry rats … Not fair.

Medicine is in its darkest days and the entire human race is suffering for it. Medicine and industry made a devil’s bargain and the arrogance of professional men just gobble it up as they earn their gravy.

Dr. Mark Allan Sircus, Ac., OMD, DM (P)
Director International Medical Veritas Association
Doctor of Oriental and Pastoral Medicine
http://publications.imva.info
http://blog.imva.info

“I won’t clog up the system with huge blah blah blah”

That’s very ‘non-turd’ of you today, Gary

You don’t really think god made your i-pad do you ?

I thought his name was ‘Steve’.

We interrupt this program for an urgent message from the PM,s shit in chief Cuthbert Codswallop ..

‘I regret to tell you that we have issued an urgent product recall, the govt,s automatic robot shitter, the Garry Mark 4 has run amok and has been shitting down the Fracking holes and large sections of the Peninsula are slipping into the sea.

Return your automatic robot shitter, the Garry Mark 4 to the nearest suicide centre .. oops I mean vaccination centre and your 25 cents will be refunded.

The Garry Mark 4, if covered in shit will not be accepted .. report with your bill of sale to the Govt vehicle washing station and your 25 cents will be deducted from the $666 dollars charged by the station.

Look at this and make some sensible comments if you can Ivor.

http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/top-10-evolution-myths.pdf

BTW Ivor, I will be having high tea with the Governor General next month. Anything you want me to talk to him about?

The Trouble with the ANTI “Anti-Vaccine” Movement: How They Hijack the Issue; Distort the Facts; and Totally Miss the Point

Tweedledum By Julie Obradovic

1. They believe there is an anti-vaccine movement.

This may surprise a lot of people, but there actually isn’t an “anti-vaccine movement”. Although there are definitely people who believe no vaccine is a good vaccine, the controversy has never been solely about whether or not vaccines are good or bad; it’s been about whether or not they are being used responsibly and have been properly investigated for their role in chronic health conditions.

The more appropriate term to describe people raising this important question would be consumer safety advocates, seeking informed consent, more research, product liability, and policy reform.

Only a few possibilities exist to explain why those who insist on using the “anti-vaccine” label anyway continue to do so: they erroneously assume anyone who questions a product’s safety is automatically against it; they believe vaccines already are being used as responsibly as they possibly can be and have been properly investigated; or they choose to use a red herring label like “anti-vaccine” to manipulate people.

2. Anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot.

If the first line of attack doesn’t work it will almost always be followed by an insult. Not only are people who disagree portrayed as dangerous lunatics who want to see the world explode in infectious disease, supposedly they are also “flat-earthers” who can’t accept the world is round. Certain journalists have gone so far as to suggest it’s no wonder their children have problems.

Such commentary is breathtaking in its insensitivity, entirely unnecessary, and most troublesome once again, not true. Even the CDC has recognized for years, most recently in a study on Hepatitis B uptake, that the most common demographic of a person who questions vaccine safety or refuses them is a highly educated mother with a master’s degree.

When faced with this unpleasant fact, anti “anti-vaxxers” are left with little place to go. Some have started calling these parents “superstitious”, “defenders of pseudo-science”, or “conspiracy theorist” instead.

3. They blame Dr. Wakefield for everything.

Dr. Wakefield has now become the scapegoat for the whole controversy. Supposedly this man and his team of researchers, who had the audacity to suggest there might be a problem with the MMR that warranted further study, is single-handedly responsible for the plummeting vaccine uptake throughout the country.

This too is untrue. Parents who implicate the MMR in their children’s Autism represent only a sub-set of parents. Dr. Wakefield’s study was not and never has been the whole story where vaccines and Autism have been concerned.

4. They just don’t get it.

Although the controversy appears to be about vaccines, it goes much deeper than that. Quite simply, many parents have lost faith in their physicians.

While some would like to believe this is because parents are impressionable conspiracy theorists that can’t distinguish fact from fiction, arguably the medical community has brought this problem on themselves.

They sold out to the pharmaceutical industry. They have a terrible track record for children’s health. They refuse to examine how they might be responsible for that. They dismiss the testimony, experience and suffering of thousands of parents and children. They threaten parents with ultimatums. Most important, they are completely inept at dealing with Autism and always have been.

At this very moment, doctors still can’t agree on what Autism is, how to define it, when it started, if it’s a problem, who has it, if it’s treatable, how it’s treatable, or what to do about it. In fact, the only thing they feel completely confident telling the world about Autism is who didn’t cause it: them.

To the intelligent parent, their credibility is completely lost.

Furthermore, the idea that better diagnosis or a broadening of the definition is responsible for the disproportional number of children identified with Autism now-a-days is an assault on the common sense of the average middle aged person, old enough to clearly remember the non-existent condition in their peers thirty years ago; young enough to verify this in their elders; and astute enough to see the reality of their children’s sick generation in their own families, schools and neighborhoods.

As a response, the medical community has taken the position that parents actually can’t believe what they live or what they see, their reality a misdiagnosed illusion. In essence, people without a white coat are unqualified to understand their own world.

What a condescending insult if ever there was one.

5. They repeatedly distort or exaggerate the facts.

The amount of studies done on the relationship between vaccines and Autism is limited. Only one ingredient (Thimerosal) and one injection (the MMR) have ever been studied. The quality, integrity, depth, and extent with which they have are at the heart of the controversy. (Objectors = Flat-Earthers. Got it?)

To put it into perspective, there are currently over 20 injections (more than 36 vaccines) given to children before kindergarten, and at last count, over five-dozen ingredients in them depending on the manufacturer. Most often these injections are given simultaneously. No study exists on the safety of doing so.

More disturbing, only a few studies have used American children as the study group. Even worse, each and every one of them was funded and/or completed by a vaccine patent holder, a vaccine manufacturer, or a public health agency or agent responsible for vaccine uptake. Often it is a combination of all three.

In spite of these blatant conflicts of interest, the studies have been touted as conclusive evidence of a lack of correlation; this even though several studies have come to contradictory conclusions. Several, for example, show Thimerosal, a mercury-based neurotoxin, is beneficial to children’s health. One shows it has an indeterminable effect. One shows it possibly prevents Autism. Others show it causes tics, speech delay, and behavior delays.

Furthermore, no study exists on the differences between health outcomes among vaccinated and never vaccinated American children. The medical community claims this is impossible or unethical to do, even though thousands of American children are never vaccinated right now.

6. They pretend to be the gatekeepers of science.

Gone are the days of limited access to information. With the advent of the Internet, scientific information is readily available to whoever would like it. While certainly this doesn’t qualify anyone who reads it as being an expert, it does mean that a new phenomenon has developed: consumer-scientists who question what he or she is being sold.

Combined with the mounting instances of pharmaceutical fraud, the lack of urgency or answers for Autism, and the availability of this scientific information, parents have become a critical voice of what they have uncovered: compromised research; conflicts of interest; non-sensical methodology; idiotic results; and unanswered questions.

When faced with these criticisms, the medical community has taken the position that lay members of society, such as parents, are unqualified to make these claims. They dismiss their concerns as embarrassingly amateur, not to be taken seriously. That may be so, except for one thing.

It was a lay member of society, a journalist with no medical background or scientific expertise, who first claimed Dr. Wakefield committed fraud. It was the same journalist who examined the research and concluded it was, then allowed to publish his findings in a medical journal. The medical community has made him their champion.

The double standard is astounding.

7. They fail to acknowledge the context of the controversy.

In the vaccine controversy, there are four major players: the consumer, the government, the medical community, and the pharmaceutical industry. The consumer purchases a product manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry that is mandated for use by the government that is given to them by the medical community.

Should the consumer get hurt by the product neither the pharmaceutical industry nor the medical community can be held liable. Instead, the consumer pays a tax on the product that funds a court run by the government that determines if they were hurt and to what extent.

The science and experts they use to make that determination are provided from the defendants themselves: the medical community, government, and pharmaceutical industry. If it is determined the consumer was in fact injured, the government awards compensation from the consumer tax fund. In other words, the injured consumers pay themselves.

This, for many citizens just realizing it, is insane.

Fear, however, allows it to continue. Consumers are repeatedly told this is all for their own good and that to dismantle the system would lead to certain death. The subsequent abandonment of the pharmaceutical industry from the market (should they actually be held accountable for their product) would make it so, they claim. Policy makers believe it.

Coupled with the fact the government is now partnering with the pharmaceutical industry to create vaccines in public-private partnerships, we now have a situation in which the government is profiting from their use while simultaneously serving as their regulator and recommender. Believe it or not, we have actually legislated the ability to legally kill someone for profit without liability.

In the case of the Autism controversy, the problem is simple: consumers are accusing the government, pharmaceutical industry, and medical community of collectively causing Autism, yet the government, pharmaceutical industry and medical community are the only ones who have been allowed to investigate themselves to determine if they are guilty. Astonishingly, they keep coming up innocent.

Still, many believe the sheer volume of people involved in those entities makes any connection between them and the crime of which they are being accused impossible; hence, the conspiracy theorist accusation. Surely someone, somewhere, they justify, would have stopped it.

Unfortunately, this is not a good argument. Too many people have never been a deterrent to corruption or the perpetuation of atrocities, especially when there is money and accountability involved; in fact, it is almost always precisely because there are so many people involved the problem continues. It’s systemic. One needs only examine the housing crisis as evidence.

8. They over-simplify the problem.

The debate over whether or not vaccines are being used responsibly has many folds. It is not just about whether or not they cause Autism or other chronic disease. It is also about whether or not we have appropriate consumer education, are violating civil rights, have properly assessed the risk-reward ratio over the long term, have properly identified or supported vaccine injury, and whether or not the right people are in charge of doing the right science to determine that. It is also to bring attention to the fact we have legislated the ability of our government to kill someone for profit without criminal liability.

But perhaps most difficult of all, the vaccine controversy is really just a microcosm of a much larger issue. When being forced to vaccinate in order to participate in society, parents are to accept their child may be injured or killed for the sake of other children. They are also to accept there is no way of identifying who that child may be. Their only comfort is statistical rarity; a statistic mind you, created by those who manufacture, profit from, regulate, and are responsible for vaccine uptake…and can never be held accountable if they are wrong.

When parents decline, weighing the immediate risk-reward ratio carefully, they are told opting out and putting their child first is immoral and selfish, leaving the rest of the world’s children in danger, perhaps the most counterintuitive position a parent can take. Even so, vaccination, society insists, is the right thing to do for everyone; that, above all else, should come first.

This is medical communism.

Historically, communism has failed at least in part for the fact that it didn’t value the individual. Every time enough disregarded individuals became strong enough to overthrow the government that considered them meaningless, they did. Contrary to what one would have expected, it was never immoral to put the individual ahead of the whole; it was actually immoral not to.

With our current vaccine policy, we are witness to this now. Everyone, it seems, wants to matter.

9. They have no hypothesis.

The hypothesis of those who believe Autism is primarily, but not exclusively, an iatrogenic disease is simple: heavy metals and toxins when coupled with microbes such as bacteria or viruses are able to penetrate the central nervous system and/or damage the immune system, thereby leading to systemic malfunctions that manifest as the symptoms of Autism and other health conditions in a susceptible person. Depending on the exposure, timing, and combination, the manifestations vary.

Vaccines contain both heavy metals and microbes and would be one way of causing such a problem, especially since they deliver them artificially into the body via injection. Medications, as well as other toxins, like pesticides per se, would possibly contribute too.

This is a reasonable and plausible hypothesis to explain the explosion in chronic disease we have documented in the industrialized nations of the world over the last 200 years. The chemical soup in which we now live is frightening. Everyone can agree on at least that.

Evidence to support this hypothesis abounds. Dan Olmsted and Mark Blaxill brilliantly documented the likelihood of this phenomenon in their extraordinary book, Age of Autism: Mercury, Medicine, and a Man-Made Epidemic. They also uncovered a similar set of circumstances that would explain why polio became more dangerous in the late 19th and early 20th centuries: pesticides. To ignore what they have discovered is a disservice to humanity.

The pursuit to pinpoint one causal factor of Autism and other chronic conditions appears to have been short-sited. This is not moving the goal posts; it’s finally seeing the bigger picture. For if they’re right, the studies on vaccines and Autism thus far have not properly assessed the significance of the total toxic burden mothers and children bear or how the ability to tolerate it varies. Even in the few that have tried, selected exposures have been theoretical only (as have been the amounts of Thimerosal when they were assessed).

But unfortunately, this hypothesis is being ignored. Instead, ridiculous theories abound, not the least of which that Autism is purely genetic. There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. Additionally, in spite of millions of dollars in research, and in spite of how some doctors are spinning it, no Autism gene has ever been found. More important, toxins can alter gene expression. Differences found may not be causal, but rather evidentiary.

In the mean time, alternative hypotheses have surfaced. Pajamas. Depressed dads. Old, schizophrenic moms. Living too close to the highway. Pollution. Rainfall.

Admittedly insulting at first, they may be on to something. Pajamas are doused in antimony, an anti-flame retardant. Depression and schizophrenia both have connections with heavy metals. Older moms have a larger toxic burden. Highways are made from concrete; concrete dust contains mercury. So does pollution. And let’s not forget pesticides.

As Dan and Mark have both stated repeatedly, facts cluster around a good hypothesis. Theirs is by far the best one ever presented.

10. They have an excuse for everything.

Everything regarding Autism is a coincidence. From the observations of the first doctor to identify the disorder in 1943, to the symptoms, to the timing, to the anecdotal evidence of parents, to the prevalence and incidence rates, to the improvement and recovery, all of it is considered best explained by coincidence.

When the rates of Autism began to skyrocket in the mid 1990’s, right after the amount of mercury tripled in vaccines, moved up to the day of birth, and more vaccines began to be added to the schedule, they claimed to have simply missed everyone that had Autism for decades prior.

As the explosion continued over the next fifteen years, and schools and doctors and parents became overwhelmed with the demands of these children, they claimed they were over-diagnosing. They took it even further and said it was parents, not them, who were actually to blame. Parents were greedily seeking services for their children they didn’t deserve.

(Perhaps this shouldn’t have been a surprise, however. Parents, especially moms, have always been blamed. Doctors hypothesized for years, until the 1970’s in fact, that Autism was the subconscious reaction of a child who felt their mother wanted to reject or even kill them. This is why Autism was originally put in the psychiatric realm and remains to this day.)

Now, almost twenty years into the epidemic, they have come to another coincidental conclusion. From 1943 to 1994, they misdiagnosed. From 1994 to 2011 they over-diagnosed. And now, in 2012, they need to UN-diagnose; thus the new DSM-V criteria.

The absurdity is stunning, if not criminal. By their own admittance, they have no idea what they are doing. One wonders if they even realize they are nullifying all of the science done on Autism thus far with this change. For if you still don’t even know what Autism is, how can you have appropriately studied what causes it?

11. They fail to recognize their tactics aren’t working.

Were I not an educator who has grown accustomed to separating the critique of my profession from myself, I’m not sure I would be able to say the things I have. This essay is an indictment of the medical-industrial complex, not an individual.

I have just thoroughly and thoughtfully laid out the position for why the vaccine controversy continues. I will continue to do so as long as I live, or until at which time it is no longer necessary. I am confident other parents like me will do the same. Calling us names, censoring our stories, or dismissing our concerns will not deter us.

Until then, it is simply not true to say there is nothing to debate. It is simply inexcusable to censor or stop the conversation. It is simply juvenile to use insults to describe those who refuse. And mark my words; it’s a waste of breath.

Parents, the consumers of these privately made products mandated for use by their government and given to them by their doctors, will fund and complete the science they demand. It is not a matter of if, but when. Hell hath no fury like that of a parent scorned, especially one told that their life is lie and that neither their child nor their suffering matters.

It is time for everyone to remember what we are seeking: health and wellness for all of the world’s children. We simply disagree on how to best attain it. The tactics being used to dismiss us serve no purpose other than to prolong it.

Julie Obradovic is a Contributing Editor to Age of Autism.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/02/the-trouble-with-the-anti-anti-vaccine-movement-how-they-hijack-the-issue-distort-the-facts-and-tota.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ageofautism+%28AGE+OF+AUTISM%29

Nice post, Ivor.

Point by point – it sums up the text-based behaviour on this website of those two sneering, arrogant wankers

- very accurately.

“I will be having high tea with the Governor General”

brilliant, gary, just brilliant.
is that supposed to make us respect you?

does he need his apple computer fixed?

I’ve got a question for you to ask Sir Jerry.
“are we (as new zealanders) the queen’s lapdogs bitches?”
also ask him
“what is the relevance of the monarchy to the average new zealander?”
also, if you can…
“how can we get her (the intergenerational, inbred, serial killer) flag off of our flag?”

will you do that for me gary?
when you have “high tea with the Governor General”
huh?

He he he

Scot, you arrogant wanker. Are you sneering it me?

Shall I pop you in Uncensored’s

‘Sneering Fuckhole Time-Out Bin’

for seven days, gaz ?

Until you can learn to stop using this website

as a form of entertainment for the uglier aspects of your personality.

It’s a website

– not a urinal for mean-spirited old pricks like you.

So either contribute or FUCK off.

The other vaccine thread on uncensored said that Australia are going to start to financially coerce people to have the dripping needle .. so far that has not happened here, I wonder how long that little window of Health Freedom will remain open ?

Just in case anyone has forgotten then it is worth repeating the Fascist big business solution so far.

7. They fail to acknowledge the context of the controversy.

In the vaccine controversy, there are four major players: the consumer, the government, the medical community, and the pharmaceutical industry. The consumer purchases a product manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry that is mandated for use by the government that is given to them by the medical community.

Should the consumer get hurt by the product neither the pharmaceutical industry nor the medical community can be held liable. Instead, the consumer pays a tax on the product that funds a court run by the government that determines if they were hurt and to what extent.

The science and experts they use to make that determination are provided from the defendants themselves: the medical community, government, and pharmaceutical industry. If it is determined the consumer was in fact injured, the government awards compensation from the consumer tax fund. In other words, the injured consumers pay themselves.

This, for many citizens just realizing it, is insane.

“Shall I pop you in Uncensored’s

‘Sneering Fuckhole Time-Out Bin’

for seven days, gaz ?”

Censored by Uncensored. What a hoot.

Go on Scotty, do it. Imagine my rage at not being able to respond to your anti science nonsense.

Breaking News:

Cuthbert Codswallop regrets that his Garry Mark 4 Robo-Shitter has displayed behavior similar to human rage and has shit over everything including Cuthberts crotch.

I will not Stand For this anymore Cuthbert reportedly said .. when I asked him to be more explicit Cuthbert said that he was severing his connection and removing his plug.

In addition I shall ask the staff of this admirable facility to remove his shit from the Forum.

Speaking to members of the Forum .. Ivor said .. good riddance to bad rubbish, I recommend that the medical snatch squads be placed on standby as the shit box explodes, his inherent instability make this highly possible.

Ther is something very peculiar going on in your head Ivor.

The Appeal of Prof John Walker-Smith Against the United Kingdom General Medical Council (Wakefield Case)

Walker-smith.jpg.displayOn Monday the appeal begins of Prof John Walker-Smith against the decisions of the GMC as one of the three doctors in the Wakefield case. It should be stressed that Prof Walker-Smith’s appeal is purely on his own behalf and that Andrew Wakefield was forced to withdraw from the appeal due to cost. A third doctor, Prof Simon Murch, was permitted by the GMC to return to work on the basis that he was only Prof Walker-Smith’s junior at the time.

A key issue at the GMC hearing was the prosecution claim that the Wakefield 1998 Lancet paper was in reality a study that had been commissioned by the UK Legal Aid Board relating to pending litigation over the MMR. The three doctors, on the other hand, contended that the projected LAB study was never performed, and that Lancet paper was “an early report” of cases seen on the basis of clinical need, as indeed it had stated. Paradoxically, the GMC panel also found the doctors to be guilty of breaching the terms of the LAB protocol in virtually every respect, instead of accepting the plausible evidence of the doctors that it was simply not the same paper. The panel found:

“The Panel has heard that ethical approval had been sought and granted for other trials and it has been specifically suggested that Project 172-96 was never undertaken and that in fact, the Lancet 12 children’s investigations were clinically indicated and the research parts of those clinically justified investigations were covered by Project 162-95. In the light of all the available evidence, the Panel rejected this proposition.”

However, the panel never elaborated on what evidence it was they were citing, and another problem was that the panel mis-described ‘Project 162-95’ which was not a project at all but the ethical permission granted to Prof Walker-Smith to retain biopsy samples taken in the course of clinical routine for further scientific investigation, when he brought his clinic to the Royal Free Hospital in autumn 1995. Indeed, parents of the Lancet paper children had signed this ethical permission in the course of their children’s routine clinical investigation. Of course, if the panel had stated this openly before the assembled media in January 2010 they would certainly have had some further explaining to do, which may have been avoided by the ruse of calling 162-95 a “project”.

A fundamental problem with the GMC findings is that they are supposed to be to the highest standard of legal proof which in the UK is “beyond reasonable doubt”. However, in finding as they did they simply set aside the oral evidence of Prof Walker-Smith and the other two doctors about the clinical condition and history of the patients (amongst other matters). The panel never found Prof Walker-Smith to be guilty of dishonesty, but nevertheless his evidence was systematically ignored. This was despite the fact that Prof Walker-Smith is an acknowledged world expert on pediatric gastroenterology – the main pioneer in the field with Prof Allan Walker of Harvard – and far more qualified to speak about it than anyone else present at the hearing apart from Prof Murch (and certainly the panel).

It is an interesting feature that neither the prosecution or the defence called the parents as witnesses (of course none had ever complained). The prosecution might have found it harder to maintain that patients were not sick and the procedures inappropriate if they had called them, while the defence no doubt took the view that it was not for them to prove anything, and in a normal hearing they might have been right.

It is difficult to believe that the British establishment will allow a single chink of light to be shed on these matters. Ken Clarke, who was Health Secretary in 1988 when GSK’s Pluserix MMR indemnity was signed, is now head of judiciary (Justice Minister and Lord Chancellor), and when he ran as leader of the Conservative Party in 2005 it was with Sir Christopher Gent, chairman of GSK, as his principal backer. Against this the presiding judge, Sir John Mitting has a long history frustrating the government bureaucracy in his decision-making and is not obviously conflicted. But in January 2010 an Oxford journal was already calling the result of the GMC. We note the date of publication of David Galton’s parody ‘Kafka’s trial revisited’ ten days ahead of the GMC panel’s findings on fact. We are about to discover what – if anything – has changed in two years.

“In the vaccine controversy, there are four major players: the consumer, the government, the medical community, and the pharmaceutical industry. The consumer purchases a product manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry that is mandated for use by the government that is given to them by the medical community.
Should the consumer get hurt by the product neither the pharmaceutical industry nor the medical community can be held liable. Instead, the consumer pays a tax on the product that funds a court run by the government that determines if they were hurt and to what extent.”

Ivor, take a look outside the window.

What country are you are you in?

From what you have written it sure as hell is not NZ.

In case you hadn’t noticed:
- the NZ government does not mandate vaccination. It is voluntary
-the vast majority of vaccinations in NZ are those provided free on the childhood schedule. How exactly does the consumer pay tax on them if they are free?
-if a consumer is hurt by a medical product there are a multitude of ways the medical professional or the pharmaceutical company can be liable – malpractice findings, deregistration, manslaughter charges, HDC inquiries, lawsuits etc Etc

Can I suggest you get your basic facts right.before you use them as the foundation for your conspiracy theories?

“Garry Mark 4 Robo-Shitter”

I was sure he a the earlier 3,1 model, you know, the one with the defective logic board.

@ The Government is NOT your Mommy.

Yes we are aware of the problem .. but it costs money to fix .. let me tell you there is not much money in shit .. for some reason the Robo-Shitter causes crops to wilt and humans to run screaming and dogs and cats to drop dead.

All of the different modifications are still the 3.1 model we just change its color .. strange but it works every time.

Neo .. I will get back to you. I have a visitor.

@Neo .. at the end of the newsletter you will find the following ..

Julie Obradovic is a Contributing Editor to Age of Autism.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/02/the-trouble-with-the-anti-anti-vaccine-movement-how-they-hijack-the-issue-distort-the-facts-and-tota.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ageofautism+%28AGE+OF+AUTISM%29

Posted by Ivor | February 10, 2012, 11:42 am
===============================

I believe the Age of Autism is a British publication but has a very large input from America because of their 300 million plus population. Julie Obradovic is speaking of the situation in America .. soon to be Australia and then us .. that is the normal Kaaching Kaaching route. And despite your protestations about it being free, who the hell do you think pays your inflated salary?

The stories about the route for medical complaints takes sometimes years and just like the police the medics are always right. There have been a number of them .. do you remember Sandra Coney ?
She had a lot to say about the medical shysters. Check her out.

So its all voluntary .. oh for sure Neo .. excuse me if I snigger, I went through the voluntary bit when I first arrived with my Son .. it sure is hard work Neo .. peer pressure and all.

I honestly think that you must live inside an Iron lung if you cannot see that there is an extremely strong ground swell against what your lot are doing.

And when the the people start to get organised then Medical Science is really going to come under pressure.

Point by point Julie Obradovic has laid out the problems that parents with Autistic children have to cope with, and why they have to cope with it.

Well that total arrogance comes with a price at the end of the road, only a few kilometers left Neo .. Hanging is too good for some of the monsters that your people hold close to the chest .. as Jas has said .. its all a matter of record.

When peoples lives are involved then the first whiff of trouble from those vaccines should be enough to call a halt until it has been proved one way or another .. but it does not work like that does it Neo? Science prevaricates and many thousands die or are saddled for life as a medical slave that helps to pay the fancy salaries.

All of that is coming to an end Neo and the best of luck to you .. errr ?? well not really .

Gary is banned!

You’ve been blocked for a week, gary.

You need a disincentive to continously treating this blog as a urinal for the parts of yourself that never evolved past the kindy sandpit.

And to treat the forum and the fairly unique subject matters that it chooses to broach – with a modicum of respect.

And this is it.

I will unblock your IP address next saturday.

Til then you can go brighten up someone else’s life.

Sorry, gary.

Have just had too many complaints about your behaviour.

Will keep trashing your posts from other ISPs till next saturday.

Hopefully you will come to realise that Uncensored is not all about schoolboy pissing contests.

Huroo Martin,

Shortly after the devastation of CHCH and many peoples lives .. there was a curious incident .. I cannot recall the mans name (maybe its Ring) I first became aware of him when the turncoat Campbell of TV3 did what looked like a Govt hit job on the man (Ring)

Apparently Mr Ring had made some comments about the moon having an effect on Earthquakes, and the turncoat gave him a right real roasting .. my thoughts at the time were that Campbell had very quickly learnt which side of his bread is buttered and by whom .. and who pays for the fancy suits whilst he postures .. pretending to be a man of the people ..

we are not really a free nation at all, we are most definitely run by a small elitist clique, who with a little tweak here, and a little tweak there,smash peoples lives and that of their families too.

I can see what the moon does to the tides .. so why not tectonic plates ? Perhaps the moon has an amplifying effect on tremors and especially those that are HAARP induced, because its for sure that the Govt and its minions went to a lot of trouble and expense such as ..Campbell live and Lunch for Dozens on a hill in CHCH. Its for sure a lot of people believed Mr Ring. And given subsequent events I must say .. Mr Ring 10 .. Govt science zero.

I would have dismissed it as another ho hum govt misinformation shit upon .. however it was reported in the main stream press that a Group of Scientists in their NZ Scientific blog spot were going to conduct a public stoning of Mr Ring.

Piqued I decided to pop in under a non de plume and to see what went down .. OMG it was hilarious .. they were easy meat .. The stoning never gained any traction and they fell into discussing chocolate crumbs in their keyboards and how nice it was to have a surfeit of good things. Once again, pointed questions never got any real answers.

If this is atypical of science at work then we are extremely badly served.

Here we are on our little speck (space ship) travelling through space at approx 99,000 Km per hour and the moon around the earth, and earth around the sun and then of course we have our planetary neighbors to which similar motions apply .. it all looks like the original concept of the atom complete with angles and rotations .. I am minded of an embryo and its development.

When the male sperm hits the female egg and buries itself like a meteor .. I can well believe the impact causes similar percussion’s as it does on a larger planetary scale ..

I firmly believe that mad dog humans are causing out of place earth quakes and tidal waves .. when one subjects an embryo to such horrors then we have death or mutations .. three legs .. two heads and so forth .. the HAARP nonsense is going to cause us as a specie many unseen hazards.

So back to CHCH .. so many coincidences and so many lies and I have seen lots of this manipulation of real time events so that I no longer believe in coincidence .. everything happens with a reason ..

ewingsc why did you blocked me. I am not Gary. You didn’t like what I wrote? So how many people do you block? i know of two now

Oh groan .. Robo-shitter mark 5.

It would appear that some people who use this forum have chosen to deliberately understand the context in which UNCENSORED is used and have chosen to shit over all and every thing that does not agree with the laughable skepdicks.

The site gives the people a Forum to discuss many things which are generally forbidden in the MSM and the ludicrous Skepdicks sites. This of course is a nasty form of censorship to which UNCENSORED addresses itself and taken in its correct context it serves an urgent need .. it helps to keep those beacon fires of freedom burning on the hill tops throughout our land.

ewingsc the site is admirable and I congratulate your patience with us all. It sure is nice to not have to keep slapping my neck to deter the blue bottles with their load of maggots.

My apologies .. my previous post

Correction .. the word understand should be misunderstand ..

deliberately (Mis) understand the context in which UNCENSORED is used

@gary2/benswert

Those ISP’s have been listed and will also be unblocked on Saturday.

Satisfied ?

“And despite your protestations about it being free, who the hell do you think pays your inflated salary”

My salary comes from a DHB, which is funded y the government. How exactly does this relate to the fact that parents in NZ don’t have to pay for the majority of childhood vaccines? I think you are a little confused.

“So its all voluntary .. oh for sure Neo .. excuse me if I snigger, I went through the voluntary bit when I first arrived with my Son .. it sure is hard work Neo .. peer pressure and all.”

Bollocks. Thanks to people like you, NZ has one of the lowest childhood vaccination rates in the developed world.
It is NOT mandatory… Anyone with a broadband connection and the url of a few propaganda websites has the right to convince themselves that they are an expert on all things medical.

“I honestly think that you must live inside an Iron lung if you cannot see that there is an extremely strong ground swell against what your lot are doing.”

With regards to vaccination, I agree with you that there is a strong groundswell against it. That doesn’t mean that the people who make up that groundswell are in posession of correct information though.

“When peoples lives are involved then the first whiff of trouble from those vaccines should be enough to call a halt until it has been proved one way or another .. but it does not work like that does it Neo? Science prevaricates and many thousands die or are saddled for life as a medical slave that helps to pay the fancy salaries.”

As usual Ivor, your argument is somewhat convoluted. Your statement above suggests that if vaccines do not create any “whiffs of trouble” then they are acceptable. Do you now believe that vaccines have benefits?

How exactly does a medical slave help pay fancy salaries? I think your conspiracies are getting mixed up…

“You’ve been blocked for a week, gary.

You need a disincentive to continously treating this blog as a urinal for the parts of yourself that never evolved past the kindy sandpit.

And to treat the forum and the fairly unique subject matters that it chooses to broach – with a modicum of respect.

And this is it.

I will unblock your IP address next saturday.

Til then you can go brighten up someone else’s life.”

Ewingsc – So i assume you’ll be banning those those other folk whose contributions are nothing more than obsenities and cries of “troll, troll”‘ plus of course those whose lack of respect for the differing opinions of others is manifested as “fuck off; wanker; prick; pair of wankers; Fuck off and die” etc etc

…oh wait…

That means you’ll be banning yourself.

Good luck with that brother. See you in a week.

‘Uncensored’ my ass.

Thought you’d be all pissy about it.

Do you mind if I don’t give a fuck ?

Nope.

You just keep enjoy feeling open-minded and not at all hypocritical.

Thanks.

Neo ..

you seem to live in some kind of academic wonderland with no concept of what goes on outside of your little world.

So your fancy salary is paid for by the DHB .. and the DHB gets its money from the Govt and the Govt gets its money from the Tooth Fairy .. Right? .. wrong!! and 25%tax + 15% GST = 40% of the minimum wage at $13.50 per hour x 40 = $540 pw.

$540 – 40% = $216. $540 – 216 = $324 .. now I know this is primary school stuff but you seem to have forgotten a few things high up the ladder.

At your current level of salary you could not even live on $324 pw.
The average kiwi pays hard through the nose.

Medical slaves .. can we start with heart patients .. pills for life .. when Withering stole Foxglove from a Herbalist. The mode of administration was a whole plant infusion .. 2 ounce of fresh or 1/2 ounce of dried and it cureth the dropsy thereof .. and it still does Neo

And Neo I have been a Herbalist for over 40 years .. there were no computers for the common man in those days. The academic equivalent of the Prof was either an old man or an old woman who had spent a lifetime in their calling and whose reputation was excellent.

The training period was usually 7 years and one had to learn everything about 40 plants at a minimum and deal with them in their natural habitat .. Pharmacognosy, Pharmacology, Pharmacy, and then relate this to the rest of the materia medica.

We did not have fancy pills or extracts from the wholesaler we collected and made our own. Then there was the anatomy and physiology. And then the diagnosis of all of the external signs and the condition of the urine, stools and sputum and the application of the correct remedy and its posology .. when, how and for how long. And we taught the patient to make their own if they were simple infusions or decoctions.

You guys could not tell if a sausage was cooked without your fancy machines which are just an excuse for lack of diagnostic skills and we never ever dismissed what was told to us by a patient.

The medical slave is the one that has to take the pills for life without a cure in sight Neo .. chained as sure as if the chains were iron or steel.

My remarks about at the first whiff of trouble simply acknowledged the reality of the current situation re vaccines,which has nothing to do with efficacy and I note that you never answered the question .. why are not vaccines halted when there are deaths or maimings associated with them ? I will save you the trouble Neo .. kaaching kaaching!

And Neo .. as I have said before the name of the forum Uncensored does not mean that people like Gary can piss all over people who do not think like him and he is always the one who starts ..

I presume that if he cares to come back here then I will have to tolerate another onslaught from the Robo-shitter about my personal back ground that I have revealed here .. and as for your usual academic snide .. just go and do an academic Oozelem Bird.

Thanks for pointing out how the NZ tax system works Ivor… Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the taxation of vaccines that you had cut/pasted from God knows where in your earlier post.

Salaries for public doctors in NZ are paid by the government, not from drug company revenues.

Really, Ivor, how difficult is it to get your head around this?

Interesting that you deride mainstream medicine for not offering cures, then talk about how digitalis was stolen from the naturopaths…. What exactly does digitalis cure, Ivor? It provides symptomatic treatment but cures nothing.

Hypocrite!

Neo your stuff ..
“Salaries for public doctors in NZ are paid by the government, not from drug company revenues”.
===============================
I did not, and have never said that NZ Doctors are paid from Pharmageddon revenue. My stance has been that vaccines are not free and are paid for by public taxation .. the burden of which falls on those you appear to despise.

Neo .. Vaccines are not free and neither are visits to hospitals. For Doctors paid by the DHB it is all paid for in the first place by the tax payer. Its tiresome having to continually repeat myself.

Doctors drug company perks have had, and still continue to get, a lot of publicity. The majority of your learned journals are supported by drug company advertising revenue.

Neo a Naturopath is not a Herbalist but its for sure that a Herbalist will avail themselves of a Naturopaths dietary techniques.

Withering stole the Foxglove remedy from a Shropshire woman herbalist. He riding through a village and noted a man with dropsy
which is an old term for Edema in the lower extremities usually coupled with congestive heart failure.

On his return journey the man was cured. What Withering was looking at was a condition that the Orthodx Medical Establishment had been unable to treat. He was shown a plant. Probably with the aid of Ms Helena Cook the plant was identified as Digitalis purpurea or Foxglove. Withering became the wealthiest doctor in the land outside of London.

The whole plant can do what an isolated and unnatural glycoside cannot do. (The digitalis series)I use the term unnatural because it is separated from its parent body and as such is not found isolated in nature.

Foxglove cures Edema by reversing the condition it also settles the heart .. obviously the person must take it easy. A modern herbalist or a naturopath would also recommend a total overhaul of diet and an exploration (Anecdotal) of the persons life style.

There was a time when the whole leaf preparations were used by orthodoxy but were abandoned when the glycosides were isolated this because the medics could not standardize the plant and they kept killing people by overdose either of the tincture or powdered drug.

You call me a hypocrite and yet it would appear that you know very little of the provenance of many of the drugs in orthodoxies materia medica .. many of which are plant based.

The real hypocrite’s are the people who ‘traded’ the Hippocratic dictum .. “First Do No Harm” with the hypocrites charter .. ‘risk/benefit analysis’ .. that is a real cop out, the medic gets to escape any responsibility for their actions ..

“My stance has been that vaccines are not free and are paid for by public taxation .. the burden of which falls on those you appear to despise.”

Agreed Ivor… So how does this reconcile with your earlier statement that the consumer (i.e the patient) puchases the product and pays a tax on it that is used to fund a court to investigate vaccine harm?

With regards to the NZ setup I think you are stretching things to the point of distortion.

Why do you i think i despise those who pay taxes? You are making shit up again.

Your comments about digitalis and dropsy are fairly revealing. Your assumption that improving oedema in the lower limbs equates to a cure for congestive heart failure is extremely naive. Improving oedema (which, by the way, mainstream medicine has multiple ways of doing) does not reverse the damage ini the heart…. And in fact large scale studies of digitalis in heart failure do not suggest any improvement in survival – the death rate remains at about 50 percent over 5 years. If this is what you regard as a “cure” Ivor, you are setting the bar pretty low.

In fact, treatment of CHF with digitalis would better fit under a “palliative” category – i.e according to you it wouldn’t be funded in the Ivor Health Care Reforms.

You continually come back to primum non nocere… So lets explore this some more:

If a large group of people came to you with a particular condition, and you had a herbal treatment that you knew would save 100 people who otherwise would have died, but would kill one person through side effects… WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Surely with 40 years of clinical experience you can come up with an answer that doesnt involve conspiracy theories or ozzelem birds (whatever the fuck they are),

@Neo .. your stuff ,,,
Agreed Ivor… So how does this reconcile with your earlier statement that the consumer (i.e the patient) puchases the product and pays a tax on it that is used to fund a court to investigate vaccine harm?

With regards to the NZ setup I think you are stretching things to the point of distortion.

I have already answered that but here it is again for you ..

Julie Obradovic is a Contributing Editor to Age of Autism.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/02/the-trouble-with-the-anti-anti-vaccine-movement-how-they-hijack-the-issue-distort-the-facts-and-tota.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ageofautism+%28AGE+OF+AUTISM%29

Posted by Ivor | February 10, 2012, 11:42 am
===============================

I believe the Age of Autism is a British publication but has a very large input from America because of their 300 million plus population. Julie Obradovic is speaking of the situation in America .. soon to be Australia and then us .. that is the normal Kaaching Kaaching route. And despite your protestations about it being free, who the hell do you think pays your inflated salary?

Neo .. your stuff ..
Your comments about digitalis and dropsy are fairly revealing. Your assumption that improving oedema in the lower limbs equates to a cure for congestive heart failure is extremely naive. Improving oedema (which, by the way, mainstream medicine has multiple ways of doing) does not reverse the damage ini the heart…. And in fact large scale studies of digitalis in heart failure do not suggest any improvement in survival – the death rate remains at about 50 percent over 5 years. If this is what you regard as a “cure” Ivor, you are setting the bar pretty low.

Neo do you not know the difference between a whole plant preparation and the isolated glycoside ?

If you do not then may I suggest that there has been a large body of information that has been deleted from the clinical training that your people receive there are many important differences and not the least is that when one uses a chemically altered (tampered with molecule so that it can be patented)such as a glycoside or alkaloid one removes all of Natures safety rails one also removes the natural adjuvant and other ajuvants that deal with other structures in the plants .. those arrangements fit in perfectly with the molecular structure of the body. That should be common sense .. the plants had already perfected those molecules that we use such as opsin, myocin and actin and they serve similar functions within the plants, but the final and fatal sin is the altering of a molecular structure to something that is not found in nature.

What is cured is the edema which does not return if the diet is changed .. the heart damage is something that the body can repair if it is given the right materials and support .. Let me also tell you that most types of diabetes can be cured if the treatment starts early .. no pig serum needed. just the same with cancer .. no cutting or burning required. I have already posted a Doctors story which you thought was easy to cure .. Well it would appear that she went a little further than the medical 5 year survival rate.

Medical science does not know how the body works .. the text books just like the periodic table is full of holes .. and Ozzelem birds are scientific and fly round in ever decreasing circles until they disappear up their own ass.

Neo Herbal and Naturopathic treatments do not kill so your question is not valid in natural healing terms.

Now I have already tried Orthodox treatment and they near on killed me .. I fixed myself with natural treatments. So as far as your experience goes then your education is lacking i.e. no knowledge of natural treatments and the complete dismissal of Homoeopathy .. Maybe you need to be put through the mill of your professions answers .. how does the latest orthodox slogan go ?

Health Care from Cradle to Grave? .. what a joke I have never seen so many sick children in my life and many of the poor sods are puffing on the asthma inhalers which will kill them by smashing up their lungs .. and many like the Autism kids .. The Diabetic kids and the Cancer kids .. how fucking disgraceful you lot should be ashamed of your selves ..

Well I keep telling you that what orthodoxy has done is going to earn a very harsh punishment. Make no mistake that the judges are going to see it our way.

No GMC Kangaroo Courts, no more lying medical journals and no more monsters like the Lake Alice Dr Frankenstein .. sleep well Neo .. sleep well. You can get some pills from the pharmacy.

… and just while that last post echoes soundly round the mountains,

could I suggest that we – now and forever – collectively and permanently discard the phrase

‘conspiracy theories’

from common use ?

Because,

as far as I can see

– the phrase

‘conspiracy theories’

is a phrase that was designed

- and then heavily & widely promoted -

to not only stop people from thinking,

but to stop people from talking – as well.

Right Ivor.

So the evidence has been deleted.

Why, oh why, am I not surprised?

Anyway…..

You avoided my question, so here it is again:

If a large group of people came to you with a particular condition, and you had a herbal treatment that you knew would save 100 people who otherwise would have died, but would kill one person through side effects… WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

This is, of course, the sort of thing you will have to consider if the Ivor Health Reforms come to pass….

Before the public will vote on a treatment, they will want to know how good it is, and how risky it is……

So come on, Mr 40 years as a herbalist… What say you?

The answer is that it is the person with your hypothetical condition who gets to choose the treatment. Poor Neo.

Neo I have already answered the question .. but here it is again for you …

Neo Herbal and Naturopathic treatments do not kill so your question is not valid in natural healing terms.

And yes much of the evidence has been deleted and done by falsifying and deleting key parts. Remember the Great London Cholera Epidemic the one where the heroic doctor removed a handle from the tenements water supply .. and then the heroic doctors tried to fudge the report to the House of Lords .. or maybe you do not want to remember .. after all it must be a rotten feeling after those hard years at university having all that stuff that you will never use hammered into your head. And have to remember for those exams where they check to make sure you do your homework.

Neo .. the orthodox lies and cheating in the UK go back before Culpepers time .. just look what they tried to do to Culpeper, but unfortunately for the bunch of scallywags the Star Chamber was abolished before the could get him there.

Look what they did to Paracelsus .. hounded him to death because they could not do what he did, and cured many many people including the rich and the famous of diseases that orthodoxy could not. One would have thought that orthodoxy would have welcomed the new knowledge or at least honorable men would have.

Dr Wakefield amongst a whole list of others was near on ruined by these people .. Well Dr Wakefield and Prof John Walker-Smith have, and with the support of the people who have been attended and treated by these two admirable Doctors are going to be vindicated in real courts of law, and if they are not then the end for orthodoxy will come sooner than later.

Surgeons were barbers and pharmacists were pepper and spice merchants .. But to listen to these people one would think they were high born blue bloods with long horses noses .. pah!

=================================
Neo your stuff again ..

This is, of course, the sort of thing you will have to consider if the Ivor Health Reforms come to pass….

Before the public will vote on a treatment, they will want to know how good it is, and how risky it is.

First off .. what I have been suggesting about a thorough clean out of the medical system is not my idea .. I just pass the buzz along. Its coming, its coming Neo, don’t be in such a rush .. brace your self first .. pay off the mortgage and the car and the credit cards before the salary crunch comes.

Secondly the Herbal Materia Medica of many nations is thousands of years old .. and many thousands of plants deep .. we already know what we need to know .. we do not have to run clinical trials or resort to scientific numerology .. we already know what kills and what a fatal dose is .. we already know which herbs can be safely ingested by a Mother so that a cranky child can be soothed or healed by its mothers milk.

Oh btw have you heard of the latest wheeze by the oncologists ??
This one is a Beaut as our Ozzie friends would say .. Pregnant but cancerous women are going to be treated with chemo and radiation. Apparently these guys have already done some double blind experiments and then followed the kids up from birth .. plus a little scientific numerology and Bobs your uncle even if he is not .. these people have concluded that it is safe for mother and baby .. but they still wear lead aprons and hide behind shields when administering radiation .. What say you Neo ?

Gerard – I agree with you completely – this is informed consent. Ivor, on the other hand, thinks informed consent is a crock of shit.

Clearly the patient has to make the decision as to what treatment course they will follow, but there is also the broader layer of what treatments should be funded by the government.

Herbal and naturopathic treatments do not

Utter bullshit.

If you give digitalis or salicyylic acid to the wrong patient you can kill them, to give a couple of examples.

What a complete cop out.

As for this:
“we already know what we need to know .. we do not have to run clinical trials or resort to scientific numerology”

If a mainstream medical person made this statement you would crucify them…. and yet you feel it is ok for you?

What a hypocrite.

Would also be interesting when this is the standard of evidence you present prior to your public vote for treatment funding decisions… Do you seriously think the public would buy this line from you?

As for your comments about oncology – can you provide a reference for me to read?

“Dr Wakefield amongst a whole list of others was near on ruined by these people .. Well Dr Wakefield and Prof John Walker-Smith have, and with the support of the people who have been attended and treated by these two admirable Doctors are going to be vindicated in real courts of law, and if they are not then the end for orthodoxy will come sooner than later.”

Hopefully the court appearances will be televised, and I can break out the popcorn.

Ewingsc – conspiracy theories, whether they are labelled as such or not, seem to make up he bulk of the argument against vaccination.

I would be delighted to discard them, and stick to evidence…. Like the fact, for example, that the people who got measles in aucklands recent epidemic were almost exclusively unvaccinated.

Anyone care to comment (without reference to Bill Gates, David Icke, Jews, the NWO, or 9/11)?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/chemotherapy-is-safe-during-pregnancy-6699892.html

I hope that its not genetically modified corn Neo ..

Well judging from your overall responses then your reply comes as no surprise .. so you already know enough to keep your head down and draw your salary.

This is about two of your colleagues who you obviously appear to believe got what they deserved .. and this in spite of the caught at it .. lies and cheating by a prestigious Medical journal and as far as the GMC goes they are about as useful as used toilet paper.

Informed Consent Neo .. what a joke .. Muh huh huh huh!

Like the fact, for example, that the people who got measles in aucklands recent epidemic were almost exclusively unvaccinated.

Who told you that .. was it the people that are taking backhanders from Pharmageddon ?

I have said this before Neo .. if that report came from the University of Auckland then forget it .. those people are still pushing Gardasil amongst other things.

And Neo .. many people are awake as to the name of the game .. and they can see all of the sick kids who are the ones that take the brunt of the dripping toxic needles.

Like I said your education is lacking because you only have your half of the story .. I know its hard to admit that you have been suckered, but a lot of other Doctors looked at the evidence and were absolutely outraged when they found out the truth about the nasty game.

Your stuff again Neo ..
your ignorance is showing again.

Utter bullshit.

If you give digitalis or salicyylic acid to the wrong patient you can kill them, to give a couple of examples.

Digitalis is a tampered with alkaloid which is a long way from a whole plant preparation and salicyclic acid is another tampered with isolated from its parent body preparation .. the Bull shit is coming from you Neo .. they are not natural preparations

Correction ,, that should have been a tampered with glycoside .. my apologies

Neo when these isolates are synthesized then I am sure that a little stereo chemistry would show the problem .. a little cut and paste from some of my old teaching notes ..

Chirality and Synthetic Drugs.
Between them, the Trans-National Pharmaceutical Companies market many thousands of synthetic compounds on a global basis. Of that figure around half may be classed as semi-synthetic, i.e. they have a borrowed chiral structure. Approximately 80% of the semi-synthetic compounds are racemates. The remaining synthetic compounds are achiral and are not able to undergo ‘Resolution’, i.e., the separation of ‘R’ and ‘S’ enantiomers. In many cases it is impossible to ‘Resolve’ a racemic mixture. Where the resolution is possible, the compound may have to be routed through 10 or 20 biosynthetic stages to achieve the resolution, such procedures can be length and also extremely expensive. Consequently the majority of the pharmaceutical preparations are Racemates. Until adequate safeguards are introduced the chemical and pharmaceutical industry will continue to market a product on purely economic criteria which is killing us all.

Lethal Racemates.
When and if the medical historians are finally able to write a definitive history of the 20th century orthodox medicine, they will have a burgeoning catalog of medical disasters upon which to draw. Medicine is ‘Big’ business, and like big business everywhere, they are supported by cohorts of unscrupulous lawyers, crooked politicians and renegade scientists, they are often involved in chicanery, cupidity and stupidity. All of which has been visited on an unwitting public. The drug companies have labeled their joint products as ‘Ethicals’, one cannot help but see the droll cynicism behind such a name. Especially when the reported fatalities from orthodox medicine exceed the million mark on an annual basis.

I apologize for the lack of diagrams to illustrate the scientific stuff but the forum does not have that facility.

but as an analogy .. trying to thread a right handed thread nut onto a left handed bolt will sort of give you the idea of these structures in space ,,

Hold the left hand palm outwards before a mirror and what one see,s is the right hand palm out .. a mirror image .. the mirror image is the problem .. it looks the same but it is not .. apply that to a molecule in space and one should understand better about why these critters are dangerous because the body is fooled by them.

“Who told you that .. was it the people that are taking backhanders from Pharmageddon ?”

More conspiracy allegations. What a convenient way of dismissing any evidence that doesn’t support your world views.

Hi Neo

I wasn’t talking about dropping what some people refer to as ‘Conspiracy Theories’.

I was talking about dropping the phrase ‘Conspiracy Theories’ from common use.

‘Conspiracy theories’

( a phrase already endowed with negative connotations even before anyone’s been specific )

is used to refer to a situation where there is a lack of substantiated evidence – one way or another.

Now the reason why there IS a lack of substantiated evidence – one way or another

- may not always be because there is no evidence and never was.

It may well be because someone wants to keep closer examination of the subject matter out of the light of day.

And dumping Bill Gates, David Icke, Jews, the NWO, 9/11, JFK, Aliens and UFO’s, faked Apollo Moon landings, etc, etc, etc,

into one big ‘Conspiracy Theories’ Box

- and then treating all of its contents

( each all with their own individual knowns and unknowns )

– in such an amorphous way, as if these subjects were somehow all equally invalid

( and therefore unworthy of any further discussion or examination )

and in doing so,

smearing each of the subjects in the box as a ‘Conspiracy Theory’

by their apparent and imposed association with one another

is just a little intellectually lazy, in my view.

@ Neo .. your stuff ..
More conspiracy allegations. What a convenient way of dismissing any evidence that doesn’t support your world views.
================================

Proven liars, cheats and frauds normally end up in prison.

The Medical Junta have lied and lied, there have been many instances of that posted in this thread alone.

Statistics are all very well but if they are tampered with they are worthless .. was it Mark Twain who said something about .. Lies,Damned Lies and Statistics .. plus they can be read in many different ways that gives differing results.

If a court of law will not accept the word of a proven liar and cheat then why should I ??

Maybe, but not as intellectually lazy as alleging conspiracies in order to avoid having to examine any data that doesn’t support your opinion.

Ivor’s comments above are a prime example – with a current home grown measles epidemic providing evidence of vaccine benefit, he dismisses it by alleging that Big Pharma has its hooks deep enough into Auckland University for the Auckland Regional Public Health Service to blatantly lie….

I.e he doesn’t heaven have to LOOK at the data – what a cop out.

I do take your point about lumping all those topics in together though – it doesn’t help my arguments to appear flippant and dismissive about topics that others are passionate about… But I never brought these topics into he arguments about vaccines and health care – that work was done by others, in lieu of a coherent argument.

In future I shall stick to topics I know a few things about – unlike certain others on this forum I am not an expert in everything

So statistics are all very well now unless they are tampered with?

I thought it was all numerology bollocks and you didn’t believe any of it… And you didn’t have to, because after thousands of years of herbalism you JUST KNOW….

Make up your fucking mind Ivor.

Has it not occurred to you how inconsistent your views are?

Case in point – In the post above you clearly trust the decision of a court of law…. Except when Andrew Wakefield is done in court for fraud and unethical behavior … All of a sudden it’s a Big Pharma conspiracy.

Neo .. you just make up your mind to learn to read correctly and stop trying to misrepresent what I have said.

Dr Andrew Wakefield has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law .. he was arraigned before a Kangaroo Court of Medical Men with an agenda which proves nothing. The medical equivalent of the Star Chamber is immediately suspect.

As far as I can see you are the one spreading misinformation .. there is no home grown measles epidemic any more than there was a home grown Swine Flu epidemic.

As for the crack about, “unlike some I am not an expert in everything” .. trouble with you is that you obviously swallowed hook line and sinker the line that was fed during your training, and have never questioned anything since.

The crack about Herbalism holds no weight .. Thousands of years of herbalism tells its own truth. And if you do not know the difference between a whole plant preparation and an isolated molecule or compound then what are you doing practicing medicine?

When I came to teach my subject, then I was confronted by questions that I was unable to answer, because I had not asked myself the question posed to me .. I said that I did not know but that I would find out and report back.

So I started into my Pharmaceutical chemistry again and then again until I had understood clearly what was being said .. stereo chemistry outlines what it is that is wrong with most of Pharmageddons offerings .. Racemates .. have you read that correctly Neo .. RACEMATES .. When one takes a molecule and tampers with it so that it can be patented then racemisation is the usual result. Racemates are dangerous and we do not know what they do in the human body.

Did you know that a senior executive of GlaxoSmithKline in 2003 said .. “Most prescription medicines do not work on most people who take them” ??

Connor.S. Glaxo Chief .. our drugs do not work on most patients ..
‘The Independent on Sunday. December the 8th 2003.

Http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article81625.ece

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlaxoSmithKline

http://www.drug-companies.net/

If I knew it all, then I would make mincemeat of people like you, but I resign myself to making you feel uncomfortable because it is obvious that you have no concept of the word ‘Shame’ .. so perhaps I should be content with being the gristle in your steak.

More mustard neo?

Never mind Garry will be back soon.

This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecular.org/subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml are included.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, February 14, 2012
Vitamin C Prevents Vaccination Side Effects; Increases Effectiveness

by Thomas E Levy, MD, JD

(OMNS, Feb 14, 2012) The routine administration of vaccinations continues to be a subject of controversy in the United States, as well as throughout the world. Parents who want the best for their babies and children continue to be faced with decisions that they fear could harm their children if made incorrectly. The controversy over the potential harm of vaccinating, or of not vaccinating, will not be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties anytime soon, if ever. This brief report aims to offer some practical information to pediatricians and parents alike who want the best long-term health for their patients and children, regardless of their sentiments on the topic of vaccination in general.

While there seems to be a great deal of controversy over how frequently a vaccination might result in a negative outcome, there is little controversy that at least some of the time vaccines do cause damage. The question that then emerges is whether something can be done to minimize, if not eliminate, the infliction of such damage, however infrequently it may occur.
Causes of Vaccination Side Effects

When vaccines do have side effects and adverse reactions, these outcomes are often categorized as resulting from allergic reactions or the result of a negative interaction with compromised immune systems. While either of these types of reactions can be avoided subsequently when there is a history of a bad reaction having occurred at least once in the past as a result of a vaccination, it is vital to try to avoid encountering a negative outcome from occurring the first time vaccines are administered.

Due to the fact that all toxins, toxic effects, substantial allergic reactions, and induced immune compromise have the final common denominator of causing and/or resulting in the oxidation of vital biomolecules, the antioxidant vitamin C has proven to be the ultimate nonspecific antidote to whatever toxin or excess oxidative stress might be present. While there is also a great deal of dispute over the inherent toxicity of the antigens that many vaccines present to the immune systems of those vaccinated, there is no question, for example, that thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative, is highly toxic when present in significant amounts. This then begs the question: Rather than argue whether there is an infinitesimal, minimal, moderate, or significant amount of toxicity associated with the amounts of thimerosal or other potentially toxic components presently being used in vaccines, why not just neutralize whatever toxicity is present as completely and definitively as possible?
Vitamin C is a Potent Antitoxin

In addition to its general antitoxin properties (Levy, 2002), vitamin C has been demonstrated to be highly effective in neutralizing the toxic nature of mercury in all of its chemical forms. In animal studies, vitamin C can prevent the death of animals given otherwise fatal doses of mercury chloride (Mokranjac and Petrovic, 1964). Having vitamin C on board prior to mercury exposure was able to prevent the kidney damage the mercury otherwise typically caused (Carroll et al., 1965). Vitamin C also blocked the fatal effect of mercury cyanide (Vauthey, 1951). Even the very highly toxic organic forms of mercury have been shown to be effectively detoxified by vitamin C (Gage, 1975).
Vitamin C Improves Vaccine Effectiveness

By potential toxicity considerations alone, then, there would seem to be no good reason not to pre- and post-medicate an infant or child with some amount of vitamin C to minimize or block the toxicity that might significantly affect a few. However, there is another compelling reason to make vitamin C an integral part of any vaccination protocol: Vitamin C has been documented to augment the antibody response of the immune system (Prinz et al., 1977; Vallance, 1977; Prinz et al., 1980; Feigen et al., 1982; Li and Lovell, 1985; Amakye-Anim et al., 2000; Wu et al., 2000; Lauridsen and Jensen, 2005; Azad et al., 2007). As the goal of any vaccination is to stimulate a maximal antibody response to the antigens of the vaccine while causing minimal to no toxic damage to the most sensitive of vaccine recipients, there would appear to be no medically sound reason not to make vitamin C a part of all vaccination protocols. Except in individuals with established, significant renal insufficiency, vitamin C is arguably the safest of all nutrients that can be given, especially in the amounts discussed below. Unlike virtually all prescription drugs and some supplements, vitamin C has never been found to have any dosage level above which it can be expected to demonstrate any toxicity.
Vitamin C Reduces Mortality in Vaccinated Infants and Children

Kalokerinos (1974) demonstrated repeatedly and quite conclusively that Aboriginal infants and children, a group with an unusually high death rate after vaccinations, were almost completely protected from this outcome by dosing them with vitamin C before and after vaccinations. The reason articulated for the high death rate was the exceptionally poor and near-scurvy-inducing (vitamin C-depleted) diet that was common in the Aboriginal culture. This also demonstrates that with the better nutrition in the United States and elsewhere in the world, the suggested doses of vitamin C should give an absolute protection against death (essentially a toxin-induced acute scurvy) and almost absolute protection against lesser toxic outcomes from any vaccinations administered. Certainly, there appears to be no logical reason not to give a nontoxic substance known to neutralize toxicity and stimulate antibody production, which is the whole point of vaccine administration.
Dosage Information for Pediatricians and Parents

Practically speaking, then, how should the pediatrician or parent proceed? For optimal antibody stimulation and toxin protection, it would be best to dose for three to five days before the shot(s) and to continue for at least two to three days following the shot. When dealing with infants and very young children, administering a 1,000 mg dose of liposome-encapsulated vitamin C would be both easiest and best, as the gel-like nature of this form of vitamin C allows a ready mixture into yogurt or any other palatable food, and the complete proximal absorption of the liposomes would avoid any possible loose stools or other possible undesirable bowel effects.

Vitamin C as sodium ascorbate powder will also work well. Infants under 10 pounds can take 500 mg daily in some fruit juice, while babies between 10 and 20 pounds could take anywhere from 500 mg to 1,000 mg total per day, in divided doses. Older children can take 1,000 mg daily per year of life (5,000 mg for a 5 year-old child, for example, in divided doses). If sodium must be avoided, calcium ascorbate is well-tolerated and, like sodium ascorbate, is non-acidic. Some but not all children’s chewable vitamins are made with calcium ascorbate. Be sure to read the label. Giving vitamin C in divided doses, all through the day, improves absorption and improves tolerance. As children get older, they can more easily handle the ascorbic acid form of vitamin C, especially if given with meals. For any child showing significant bowel sensitivity, either use liposome-encapsulated vitamin C, or the amount of regular vitamin C can just be appropriately decreased to an easily tolerated amount.

Very similar considerations exist for older individuals receiving any of a number of vaccinations for preventing infection, such as the yearly flu shots. When there is really no urgency, and there rarely is, such individuals should supplement with vitamin C for several weeks before and several weeks after, if at all possible.

Even taking a one-time dose of vitamin C in the dosage range suggested above directly before the injections can still have a significant toxin-neutralizing and antibody-stimulating effect. It’s just that an even better likelihood of having a positive outcome results from extending the pre- and post-dosing periods of time.

(Thomas Levy, MD, JD is a board-certified cardiologist and admitted to the bar in Colorado and the District of Colombia. He is the author of several books on vitamin C as well as numerous articles. By way of disclaimer, he is a consultant to a company that sells a brand of liposome-encapsulated vitamin C. A vitamin C lecture by Dr. Levy may be viewed at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0GC9Fq8lfg)

References:

Amakye-Anim, J., T. Lin, P. Hester, et al. (2000) Ascorbic acid supplementation improved antibody response to infectious bursal disease vaccination in chickens. Poultry Science 79:680-688

Azad, I., J. Dayal, M. Poornima, and S. Ali (2007) Supra dietary levels of vitamins C and E enhance antibody production and immune memory in juvenile milkfish, Chanos chanos (Forsskal) to formalin-killed Vibrio vulnificus. Fish & Shellfish Immunology 23:154-163

Carroll, R., K. Kovacs, and E. Tapp (1965) Protection against mercuric chloride poisoning of the rat kidney. Arzneimittelforschung 15:1361-1363

Feigen, G., B. Smith, C. Dix, et al. (1982) Enhancement of antibody production and protection against systemic anaphylaxis by large doses of vitamin C. Research Communications in Chemical Pathology and Pharmacology 38:313-333

Gage, J. (1975) Mechanisms for the biodegradation of organic mercury compounds: the actions of ascorbate and of soluble proteins. Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology 32:225-238

Kalokerinos, A. (1974) Every Second Child. New Canaan, CT: Keats Publishing, Inc.

Lauridsen, C. and S. Jensen (2005) Influence of supplementation of all-rac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate preweaning and vitamin C postweaning on alpha-tocopherol and immune responses in piglets. Journal of Animal Science 83:1274-1286

Levy, T. (2004) Curing the Incurable. Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins. Henderson, NV: MedFox Publishing

Li, Y. and R. Lovell (1985) Elevated levels of dietary ascorbic acid increase immune responses in channel catfish. The Journal of Nutrition 115:123-131

Mokranjac, M. and C. Petrovic (1964) Vitamin C as an antidote in poisoning by fatal doses of mercury. Comptes Rendus Hebdomadaires des Seances de l’Academie des Sciences 258:1341-1342

Prinz, W., R. Bortz, B. Bregin, and M. Hersch (1977) The effect of ascorbic acid supplementation on some parameters of the human immunological defence system. International Journal for Vitamin and Nutrition Research 47:2248-257

Prinz, W., J. Bloch, G., G. Gilich, and G. Mitchell (1980) A systematic study of the effect of vitamin C supplementation on the humoral immune response in ascorbate-dependent mammals. I. The antibody response to sheep red blood cells (a T-dependent antigen) in guinea pigs. International Journal for Vitamin and Nutrition Research 50:294-300

Vallance, S. (1977) Relationships between ascorbic acid and serum proteins of the immune system. British Medical Journal 2:437-438

Vauthey, M. (1951) Protective effect of vitamin C against poisons. Praxis (Bern) 40:284-286

Wu, C., T. Dorairajan, and T. Lin (2000) Effect of ascorbic acid supplementation on the immune response of chickens vaccinated and challenged with infectious bursal disease virus. Veterinary Immunology and Immunopathology 74:145-152

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Interesting article you have posted above, Ivor. It implies that vaccines have benefits resulting from stimulation of antibody production.

Have you shifted your own goalposts yet again?

As for this:

“As far as I can see you are the one spreading misinformation .. there is no home grown measles epidemic any more than there was a home grown Swine Flu epidemic.”

there have been several hundred cases of measles in the North Island in the last few months (starting with an outbreak among the unvaccinated in west Auckland), and there were thousands of laboratory proven cases of swine flu 2 years ago. I know this not because I read it in the NZ Herald, but because I TREATED A LOT OF THEM MYSELF.

Did I hallucinate this Ivor?

Or are you perhaps making shit up (again)?

Ivor… I am fully aware of racemic chemistry, plant preparations etc etc….

With your repeated references to primim non nocere you seem to be under the impression that herbal preparations cause no harm – is this a correct assumption on my part?

@Neo .. your stuff ..

there have been several hundred cases of measles in the North Island in the last few months (starting with an outbreak among the unvaccinated in west Auckland), and there were thousands of laboratory proven cases of swine flu 2 years ago. I know this not because I read it in the NZ Herald, but because I TREATED A LOT OF THEM MYSELF.
=================================

Ahem .. proof please! Hundreds of cases of measles and thousands of swine flu .. seems strange that the Govt spent millions of dollars taxpayers money and did not distribute the piggy flu vaccine that they bought ? Please explain and show the proof.

===========================
Your stuff ..
I am fully aware of racemic chemistry, plant preparations etc etc…

=============================

Well bully for you old chap but the info was not really meant for you .. many people are not aware of the Racemates and Pharmageddon so it was a good opportunity to spread the word.

Tell me what did you think of the admission from smithglaxoklein ? .. the drugs do not work, oh dear .. but they can certainly kill .. do you think this maybe something to do with those Racemates ??

Of course herbal drugs can kill your lot used to kill people on a regular basis with them .. If you recall what I said was ..

Secondly the Herbal Materia Medica of many nations is thousands of years old .. and many thousands of plants deep .. we already know what we need to know .. we do not have to run clinical trials or resort to scientific numerology .. we already know what kills and what a fatal dose is .. we already know which herbs can be safely ingested by a Mother so that a cranky child can be soothed or healed by its mothers milk.

So basically you have once again put your own interpretation on my words .. If you mean ‘First Do No Harm .. I think your Latin appears to be a little shonky .. try Google Translate.

So basically your assumption is incorrect ..
=================================
Your stuff …
It implies that vaccines have benefits resulting from stimulation of antibody production.
Have you shifted your own goalposts yet again?
================================

The article distributed by the Orthomolecular Medicine News was posted so that people will know how to counter some vaccine damage before it occurs.

Dr Levy has gone out of his way to be diplomatic in the matter and is obviously trying not to ruffle any (bird flu)feathers.

Could you please point out these implications to me, that It implies that vaccines have benefits resulting from stimulation of antibody production ?

thanks awfully ..

“Ahem .. proof please! Hundreds of cases of measles and thousands of swine flu .. seems strange that the Govt spent millions of dollars taxpayers money and did not distribute the piggy flu vaccine that they bought ? Please explain and show the proof.”

Ask and ye shall receive, Ivor:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=19319
(swine flu epidemic in NZ 2009)

http://www.arphs.govt.nz/health-information/communicable-disease/measles
(current status of measles epidemic)

As for swine flu vaccines – the govt bought 300000 and administered about 80000 – b the time the vaccine was available in early 2010 the winter epidemic had petered out.

http://tvnz.co.nz/health-news/health-workers-line-up-vaccine-3347994

I really don’t know how you have missed all this Ivor, clearly you need to expand the range of websites you look at….

As for herbal drugs killing people, what you said was:

“Neo Herbal and Naturopathic treatments do not kill so your question is not valid in natural healing terms.”

You even put it in bold for extra emphasis….

Since then you have done some backtracking – now you are saying that “my lot” are killing people with herbal preparations.

So which is it?

“Could you please point out these implications to me, that It implies that vaccines have benefits resulting from stimulation of antibody production ?”

Why, certainly:

“Vitamin C has been documented to augment the antibody response of the immune system (Prinz et al., 1977; Vallance, 1977; Prinz et al., 1980; Feigen et al., 1982; Li and Lovell, 1985; Amakye-Anim et al., 2000; Wu et al., 2000; Lauridsen and Jensen, 2005; Azad et al., 2007). As the goal of any vaccination is to stimulate a maximal antibody response to the antigens of the vaccine while causing minimal to no toxic damage to the most sensitive of vaccine recipients, there would appear to be no medically sound reason not to make vitamin C a part of all vaccination protocols”

And here was me thinking that the goal of vaccination was to depopulate the planet….. Antibodies, you say?

Your posting of his article reveals how incoherent and inconsistent your opinions are…. You have been vehemently anti vaccination, and.

“Ahem .. proof please! Hundreds of cases of measles and thousands of swine flu .. seems strange that the Govt spent millions of dollars taxpayers money and did not distribute the piggy flu vaccine that they bought ? Please explain and show the proof.”

Ask and ye shall receive, Ivor:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=19319
(swine flu epidemic in NZ 2009)

http://www.arphs.govt.nz/health-information/communicable-disease/measles
(current status of measles epidemic)

As for swine flu vaccines – the govt bought 300000 and administered about 80000 – b the time the vaccine was available in early 2010 the winter epidemic had petered out.

http://tvnz.co.nz/health-news/health-workers-line-up-vaccine-3347994

I really don’t know how you have missed all this Ivor, clearly you need to expand the range of websites you look at….

As for herbal drugs killing people, what you said was:

“Neo Herbal and Naturopathic treatments do not kill so your question is not valid in natural healing terms.”

You even put it in bold for extra emphasis….

Since then you have done some backtracking – now you are saying that “my lot” are killing people with herbal preparations.

So which is it?

“Could you please point out these implications to me, that It implies that vaccines have benefits resulting from stimulation of antibody production ?”

Why, certainly:

“Vitamin C has been documented to augment the antibody response of the immune system (Prinz et al., 1977; Vallance, 1977; Prinz et al., 1980; Feigen et al., 1982; Li and Lovell, 1985; Amakye-Anim et al., 2000; Wu et al., 2000; Lauridsen and Jensen, 2005; Azad et al., 2007). As the goal of any vaccination is to stimulate a maximal antibody response to the antigens of the vaccine while causing minimal to no toxic damage to the most sensitive of vaccine recipients, there would appear to be no medically sound reason not to make vitamin C a part of all vaccination protocols”

And here was me thinking that the goal of vaccination was to depopulate the planet….. Antibodies, you say?

Your posting of his article reveals how incoherent and inconsistent your opinions are…. You have been vehemently anti vaccination, and now you post an article that acknowledges that vaccines stimulate an antibody response, acknowledges that vaccines protect the elderly from flu, and recommends addition of vitamin C to vaccination protocols to both protect from adverse effects and enhance vaccine effects.

(unless, of course, you are going to tell me that Dr Levy is a renowned expert in protecting people from vaccine adverse effects but is a Big Pharma puppet Ozzelem bird Mossad stooge (or something similar) when it comes to the alleged benefits of vaccines…

Sort your shit out, brother!

Apologies for the double post. Clearly the vaccines have given me Parkinson’s Disease.

Neo .. your stuff
And here was me thinking that the goal of vaccination was to depopulate the planet….. Antibodies, you say?

Your posting of his article reveals how incoherent and inconsistent your opinions are…. You have been vehemently anti vaccination, and now you post an article that acknowledges that vaccines stimulate an antibody response, acknowledges that vaccines protect the elderly from flu, and recommends addition of vitamin C to vaccination protocols to both protect from adverse effects and enhance vaccine effects.

My response to all of that in an earlier post was ..
The article distributed by the Orthomolecular Medicine News was posted so that people will know how to counter some vaccine damage before it occurs.

I think that is clear enough Neo. I did not use the term antibodies, Dr Levy did. Oh whilst I remember .. the GlaxoSmithKline bombshell about the poison pills not working .. what do you think of that Neo ?? Well going on the published death rates they do work at the killing but seem to be very short at the curing.

I have looked briefly at the information on the Euro Journal most interesting .. when I look at it in more depth, and if I have any beefs I will get back to you .. have no fear ROFL.

Gee Neo you must be stumbling over yourself to get a punch or two back lol this is what I said about Herbal Medicine .. your question is not valid in natural healing terms.” and what I also said was that back in those days when orthodoxy used a great many herbal drugs .. is that ..
Of course herbal drugs can kill your lot used to kill people on a regular basis with them .. If you recall what I said was ..

Secondly the Herbal Materia Medica of many nations is thousands of years old .. and many thousands of plants deep .. we already know what we need to know .. we do not have to run clinical trials or resort to scientific numerology .. we already know what kills and what a fatal dose is .. we already know which herbs can be safely ingested by a Mother so that a cranky child can be soothed or healed by its mothers milk.

Orthodoxy killed a large number of people .. for example foxglove, as 1 example, and that is why the powdered preparation was abandoned .. Pharmageddon cannot patent what already belongs to the people so they chose to muck around and tamper at the expense of peoples lives .. and they are still at it .. shonky papers and crooked money grubbers are not designed to heal anyone .. Wake up to the corruption that is fostered.

You are the one that is inconsistent when it suits you.

You are the person that cannot read correctly .. when it suits you .. Oh and whilst you were talking of depopulation .. have you prescribed any Gardasil lately ??
Do you think that we cannot see the vaccination for breakfast, dinner and supper that we are being lined up for ?

Do you think we cannot see how the head shrinks are starting to define perfectly normal behavior as some kind of mental illness that we can be incarcerated for if we do not submit to the needle ?

If not then may I suggest that you also need to widen your browsing agenda.

I guess those are just rhetorical questions because it is perfectly obvious to me that you have no intention of examining anything .. unless it agree,s with your microscopic world view .. Pah!

You’re Invited: Long Beach California Fundraising Event for Dr. Andrew Wakefield Legal Defense Fund

Rsvp

You are cordially invited to attend the Dr. Andrew J. Wakefield Legal Defense Fund Event

When: Friday, March 2, 7:00 – 10:30pm
Where: Hyatt Regency, 200 South Pine Avenue, Long Beach, CA

In his first public appearance since filing the defamation lawsuit against The British Medical Journal, Dr. Fiona Godlee and Brian Deer, Dr. Wakefield will be the guest of honor at the Fight for Truth & Justice Fundraiser. In a celebration of unity and common purpose, the autism and health freedom movements are coming together to rally around Dr. Wakefield.

Come mix, mingle, eat and drink with old friends and new, along with leaders in both the autism and health freedom communities. Wakefield’s fight is our fight, for our health and that of our children. This is sure to be a unique and special evening that you won’t want to miss.

Attendees include: Andy Wakefield, Dan Olmsted, Kim Stagliano, Ginger Taylor, David Lewis, Julian Whitaker, Robert Scott Bell and more!

Tickets are $100 in advance, $125 at the door. Seating is limited. Admission includes food, one drink ticket, and a gift bag valued at over $50. Dress California casual. Buy tickets online HERE (www.drwakefieldjusticefund.org), at the AutismOne booth at the Expo or at the door.

Dr. Wakefield Justice Fund

Hyatt Regency Long Beach

Health Freedom Expo

Ivor, I asked you what your response would be when the public ask about the safety of herbal medicines.

You stated that my question was invalid, because herbal medications don’t kill people.

Why then, with a 10 second google search, can I find data like this?

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/news/binary5521/Journal.pdf

Forensic Implications
A range of issues arise with the use of herbal medicines, including
problems in determining what might constitute lethal levels of
the active ingredients, how a particular herb may have contributed
to death, and whether a herb may actually have caused death. The
lack of diagnostic pathological findings at autopsy may also create
difficulties (40–42). Cases may also present complex medicolegal
problems if herbal medicines have been favored over more conventional
therapy. This may be a particular issue in children with
malignancies if parents have elected to use herbs rather than standard
chemo- or radiotherapy. Death from the uncontrolled manifestations
of malignancy must raise questions about duty of care and
the possibility of criminal charges being laid.
Given the increasing popularity of herbal medicines it is likely
that they will be encountered more often in forensic practice, however
little has been written in the forensic literature about their
potential problems. Lists of drugs found at death scenes should
include any herbal remedies and if an unusual drug response is
detected at autopsy the possibility of an interaction with herbal
medicine should be considered. There should be an awareness that
herbal remedies may play a part in cases with unexpected surgical
or medical outcomes. The extent of the role of herbal medicines in
the types of cases presenting to forensic facilities is yet, however,
to be determined.

Neo .. nice find .. but can you not see the irony of the summary which I have bolded ?

First off why is the slaughter always the parents fault ??

Secondly you lot are always right 50% of the time on autopsy assuming a death reaches autopsy .. then why should I contribute to your toss of the coin ?

Is it because the parents have failed to listen to the superior intelligence espoused in this Pdf ?

What is it that I can possibly say to you that in your arguments put forward that the opposite is also true ?

What can I possibly say to make you understand that you do not own my body ??

Historically all may see .. that we are just guinea pigs in your system .. well just go and get fucked I want no part of your weird mindset .. just go and get fucked .. keep on creating monsters with our children .. and we will keep on breeding and bury you with your weird mindsets and this weird insistence that you and your ilk .. that you know better than Nature .. you are insane Neo .. totally insane .. Vaccinations for breakfast, dinner and supper ? I do not think so !!

Ivor wrote, ” well just go and get fucked I want no part of your weird mindset .. just go and get fucked .”

Scott, this is not good enough. Ivor not only has no idea on how to make a logical reasoned argument but he is also regressing to the language of his slum upbringing.
I can only surmise that he is just repeating what he has heard said to him countless times but this forum is no place for such bad language.
Ban him!


Interesting article Neo. Looks to me as if many of the so called failures of real medicine can be blamed on the idiots who are also using a naturopath’s secret mixture of herbs and spices and not telling their proper doctor when being prescribed real medicine.
What a pity these naturopaths weren’t so lazy ( or stupid) that they couldn’t get a real medical training.

Good to read Ivor Admitting that herbal medicine can kill. Pity about his London Sewer Rat language.

Oh groan .. not you again ! Sigh ! .. such is the price of freedom .. ROFL.

All New Zealanders should pay attention to the situation as described in the article. Here we have had a State legislating for the Pharmageddon option against their will .. these type of people exist here in NZ and we need to be on our guard for the sneaky legislation.
==============================

Rally this Wednesday on West Virginia Capitol Steps to Demand Right to Vaccine Choice
American Freedom On Wednesday, February 22 at 10am on the steps of the West Virginia State Capitol, families, military members, health care professionals, and legal experts will gather to affirm that vaccination choice is a fundamental human and civil right. They will demand that Senate Bill 50 (introduced by Senators Boley and Nohe) be passed swiftly, providing families with the same type of non-medical immunization exemption 48 other states enjoy and realigning West Virginia with the rest of the country regarding compulsory immunization for school entrance.

West Virginians please click HERE to send an email to your State Senator asking for their support of SB 50.

The “Rally for Parental Rights” is a free, public rally coordinated by a grassroots effort called We the Parents that will raise awareness of the legal, medical, and ethical implications of compulsory medical interventions. Parents will share their stories of tragedy, harassment, and discuss how current law impacts and decreases their family’s quality of life. Keynote speakers include representatives from VaxTruth.org, Anerican Civil Liberties Union-WV, and Center for Personal Rights, as well as Patricia Finn, Attorney, parents, families, and military members.

“This is an opportunity for parents to have a voice,“ says Lori Lee, an organizer and parent of two healthy, non-vaccinated children in Jackson County. “Our state government, our legislature is not listening. Concerned parents have been ignored by their own Senators. Senate Bill 50 is stalled in the Senate Education Committee, while many Senators ignore phone calls, faxes, letters, and pleas from their constituents. This is our chance to be heard.”
The full article is here ..
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/02/rally-this-wednesday-on-west-virginia-capitol-steps-to-demand-right-to-vaccine-choice.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ageofautism+%28AGE+OF+AUTISM%29

Much better old man. No bad language in your last post.
Have you ever been forced to have a vaccination while sheltering in New Zealand Ivan?

On second thought, don’t bother answering. What possible interest could there be in the prescientific ramblings of a witch doctor still conning people with ‘cures’ and ‘treatments’ based purely on magical thinking. Homeopathy? Pah.

Vaccination works. Even Ivor has admitted in a recent post that vaccination stimulates the immune system to produce antibodies.

Homeopathy, accupuncture, reflexology, colour therapy etc are all just so much quackery and can cure nothing but the emptiness of Ivor’s pocket.

Ivor – you state that you regard an autopsy finding as a 50/50 coin toss….and that medical statistics showing vaccine benefit are mere “numerology”

What, then, is the standard of evidence you require to be convinced that someone has been harmed or killed by a vaccine? If autopsy data and statistics are irrelevant, How are you going to show that kids are being turned into monsters by vaccines?

Answer: you will change your standards when it suits you.

…or you will claim that you “just know…”

Surprisingly profane post from you above BTW, given that you were recently whining like a preschooler about other people’s put-downs.

“What can I possibly say to make you understand that you do not own my body ??”

Um.. last time I checked uncensored was not an d-rated website…!

When have I ever advocated treating people against their will Ivor?

Can I suggest that seperating reality from paranoid delusion may be helpful?

@ Ivor

“Oh groan .. not you again ! Sigh ! .. such is the price of freedom .. ROFL.”

I feel your pain.

Life would be far more tolerable if it wasn’t constantly dotted with supercilious douchebags getting out of bed everyday to impose their granular worldviews on other people.

If anyone ever actually met these two snide dicks in a real-world room

– the urge to give them both a swift kick in the pills

would quickly become overwhelming.

More put downs, ewingsc?

You gonna censor yourself?

Don’t worry Ivor. Gary and his ilk believe in magic; think “herd immunity”. ROFL.

“Life would be far more tolerable if it wasn’t constantly dotted with supercilious douchebags getting out of bed everyday to impose their granular worldviews on other people.”

Agreed Scott. Do us a favour and have a nice long sleep in.

Regarding you threat of violence, perhaps you need to get some anger management herbs from Ivor.

“Life would be far more tolerable ….”
Agreed Scott. Do us a favour and have a nice long sleep in.

Regarding you threat of violence, perhaps you need to get some anger management herbs from Ivor.

Oops,

… And do you not realize that assaulting agents of the NWO would rapidly result in you being water-boarded in Gitmo?
Sheesh!

Too much strong ale at my favourite pub this AM . Burp, sorry for the double up.

Did I say pub? Sorry, I mean my NWO Big Pharma funded troll traing camp.

Shit I’m getting careless with my spelling lately. Am I turning into a jas? Nooooooooo!

Shush Gary. You’ll get censored by uncensored again.

@ Gerard .. and to add to the magic .. he is also pissed .. he carried out a urine test on Neo .. Neo was spotted on security camera taking goodly draughts of surgical spirit from the jars in the autopsy room.

Just prior to Neo,s urine test by Garry .. he was stopped by the cops when entering Countdown with an ER gurney from which he had forgotten to take the autopsy victim .. He also got another free urine test ..

Breaking News
Obscure ER Intern banned from driving a gurney whilst under the influence for a 2 year period. We also understand that he is now in quarantine .. the alcohol he drank was holding two cancerous assholes and the Hospital is out of asshole vaccines ..

@ The Two Trolls

Apologies.

Would like to offer a complete retraction.

Was merely attempting a self expression of profoundly felt disappointment

in you

and in everything that you do.

Infographic: Eastern vs. Western Medicine ~ Turmeric’s Powerful Life-Promoting Properties Put Pharmaceuticals to Shame

Article

Will Big Pharma Start Hacking Humans ?

The Pill Establishment has run out of patience with people who are given prescription drugs

and don’t do a good enough job of taking their pills as they are told.

Last year,

USA Today reported that:

Americans may waste as much as $258 billion a year

by not taking prescribed medications because the missed doses lead to emergency room visits,

doctors’ visits

and in-patient hospitalizations,

according to a study by Express Scripts,

an independent prescription- filling company.

…”Drugs don’t work if you don’t take them, and people often don’t take them the way they’re supposed to,”

said Bob Nease,

chief scientist at Express Scripts.

Read the rest here

Thanks Scott. I’m sure that if you met us in person you would find that we would behave in a perfectly gentlemanly way towards you. Certainly no hitting below the belt.

Turmeric is far more common in Indian cooking than traditional New Zealand (English, stick it in a pot and boil it) cooking. Is there a significant difference in life expectancy between people’s eating lots of turmeric and those who only have it occasionally?

Did you learn anything on your week off ?

Ivor, is this your handiwork ?

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/september/herbs.htm

For all your slagging off of profit mongering pharhmageddon, this is a remarkably financially oriented article – right down to the “lucrative market” provided by a large population of Africans.

Yes Scot, I learned that without me and Neo posting here, the recent comment list would be full of your comments. I didn’t find out if there is a special word for people that repeatedly comment on their own comments, but I reckon the word wanker will do until someone comes up with something better.

Oops. Just found this in a wiki….”It is rare on a site that a user would reply to their own comment, yet spammers typically will do.[”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_in_blogs
Scot, I suggest you ban yourself for spamming.

Whatever happened to
http://www.herbdatanz.com

The link appears dead.

(probably not such a bad thing.)

Killed by the NWO no doubt.

Good to see you back G.
Been awfully quiet here during your exile!
I’ve been totally unchallenged all week, ran out of things to say.
Borin,boring,boring!

@ Neo/Garry.

I can only think that my barbs must have struck hard, if you spent some of your valuable time off from ER to dig me out.

Yes those were my articles, a series of 6 donated freely which were aimed at rural Africans .. and having spent some few months in Africa I knew what the situation was like for them, so it was my way of spreading information which people ordinarily would have to pay through the nose for .. my hope was that a small NGO would pick up on it and take some action.

For all of those people that emailed me about the articles, they all got what they asked me for .. At no charge. Many millions of Africans live a slum boy life, not only in the cities but also in the rural areas.

Pharmageddons ground troops seeking guinea pigs was very much in evidence even then, and were allowed free rein by corrupt officials and their white controllers.

Garrry .. Herbdata NZ is parked and therefore no longer on line. A NZ state pension leaves no room for refinements, so my web site had to go.

It was a free site with no advertisements and complete with a 12 module course on Herbalism for those that could not afford the College version .. In addition it contained much supporting information that would have taken many months in a medical library to amass, and then to order it in a coherent form for the beginner.

I hold NZ certificates in Adult Teaching plus 3 months at the College of Infantry to become an instructor in radio and line communications. The site itself took many months to construct.

I put that at peoples disposal and answered their questions when asked for free .. no charge .. and do you know I used to get a real buzz out of doing that .. it meant that I stayed in touch with people whose circumstances in life kept them at the bottom of the ladder.

Of course there were lots of those types of people who in spite of their comparative affluence wanted something for nothing .. but that did not matter, it did not detract from my purpose, and all were served.

I am sure that all of that will sound like bragging lol but its the bragging truth.

So if you both have nothing constructive to say then do me a favor .. and piss off.

Normal personality traits and emotions like grieving soon to be classified as ‘mental illness’

Friday, February 17, 2012 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer

(NaturalNews) With every new revision of the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) controversial Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) comes the addition of new so-called “mental disorders” that are really just variances in human behavior. And the manual’s proposed fifth edition is no exception, as it proposes reclassifying normal behaviors like bereaving the death of a loved one, for instance, or spending “too much” time surfing the internet, as mental disabilities that necessitate taking psychiatric medications.

The successor to DSM-4, which was originally published in 1994, DSM-5 is set to be released in May 2013 following various preliminary draft revisions, several public comment periods, and general review by the psychiatric and medical communities. But so far, thousands of health professionals have already come out in opposition to the new manual in its current form, as it basically redefines a number of otherwise normal human behaviors as supposed mental illnesses.

According to David Pilgrim from the University of Central Lancashire in the U.K., it is obvious that DSM-5 “will help the interests of the drug companies” by widening the scope of what is considered to be mental illness. He told Reuters Health in a recent interview that the new guidelines “risk treating the experience and conduct of people as if they are botanical specimens waiting to be identified and categorized in rigid boxes.” He added that it is a “form of collective madness,” and referred to the proposed revisions as a “pseudo-scientific exercise.”

The original 1840 Census of the United States contained only one classification for mental illness, after all, which was known as “idiocy/insanity.” But throughout the following century, the number of recognized mental disorders jumped to over 100, while today, the APA recognizes more than 300 behaviors as mental illnesses in DSM-4. And for DSM-5, that number will likely jump significantly higher.

“Many people who are shy, bereaved, eccentric, or have unconventional romantic lives will suddenly find themselves labeled as mentally ill,” said Peter Kinderman, head of Liverpool University’s Institute of Psychology in a recent interview. “It’s not human, it’s not scientific, and it won’t help decide what help a person needs.”

What it will do, though, is give the field of psychology more opportunities to prescribe psychotropic drugs like Adderall, the popular medication for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), to children. ADHD diagnoses, after all, have been steadily rising over the years as the field of psychiatry continues to expand the scope of symptoms and perceived behaviors that constitute this so-called mental illness.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034997_mental_illness_grieving_psychiatry.html#ixzz1moPiIYxu

“Yes Scot, I learned that without me and Neo posting here, the recent comment list would be full of your comments. “

Did you learn anything else ?

Doctors Now ‘Firing’ Patients Who Reject Vaccination

Mike Barrett
NaturalSociety
February 16, 2012

vaccinehealthblack 210×131 Doctors Now Firing Patients Who Reject VaccinationFor many years government and health officials have been trying to push vaccination on the people. While childhood vaccine exemption rateshave been increasing, we have been seeing an overall increase in the amount of people receiving the flu shot each year. There have even been numerous occasions where legislators and others have called for mandatory vaccinations that could affect health care workers in particular. In fact, many pediatricians are so angry with their patients who refuse vaccination that they are ‘firing’ patients and their families, refusing to play their role as doctor.
Pediatricians “Firing” Parents and Families for Refusing Vaccines for Children

That’s right, pediatricians are refusing to help parents — and their families — if they aren’t ‘responsible’ enough to vaccinate their children. One study of Connecticut pediatricians found that some 30 percent of 133 doctors said they they refused to help a family due to vaccine refusal. Another survey of 909 Midwestern pediatricians found that 21 percent dismissed a family due to vaccine refusal.

While doctors are trained and told to ‘sell’ these vaccines, many people are becoming aware of vaccine dangers and risks. One study found that more than 1 in 10 parents are straying away from the traditional vaccine schedule, with the number to increase exponentially over the next few years. For doctors to refuse care for those making a decision for their own health is irresponsible to say the least.

Perhaps doctors should consider these truths about vaccines and the flu shot before ‘firing’ patients who refuse to be pricked.

Flu vaccines have been shown to be quite ineffective. They simply aren’t nearly as helpful as health officials make them out to be.

Vaccines suppress the immune system which could actually increase your risk for contracting the flu for weeks or months.

The flu shot “protects” against the influenza virus, but only about 20 percent of flu sicknesses are caused by influenza type A or B. The 80 percent remaining are caused by over 200 other bugs which make you feel like you have the flu.

Flu shots have been linked to killer nerve disease.

Vaccines contain chemicals called adjuvants, which are causing numerous health complications.

Your immune system is the absolute best defense for any sickness.

Vitamin D is over 800 percent more effective at preventing and reversing flu, with no side effects.

After reviewing this information, it is no wonder why so many parents are refusing vaccines for their child. If your doctor is refusing to help you due to vaccine refusal, be sure to thank him later for making you find a different doctor.
540×80 papaya leaf extract Doctors Now Firing Patients Who Reject Vaccination

Explore More:

Should You Follow Through with Vaccination?
Doctors Often Withhold Information from their Patients
African Country Threatens to Jail Parents for Skipping Polio Vaccination
New Bill to Mandate Flu Vaccine for New Jersey Health Care Workers
Swine Flu Vaccine Linked to Guillain Barre May Also Lead to Narcolepsy
VacciNation: Duped by Medical Quackery

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/doctors-now-firing-patients-who-reject-vaccination/#ixzz1mpH0fJHF

Ivor, have you seen this book?
A Barefoot Doctor’s Manual: A Concise Edition of the Classic Work of Eastern Herbal Medicine

Do you have an opinion on it?

A Barefoot Doctor’s Manual .. I read an early translation in the 1970,s so that was a real blast from the past. Around that time I also read Small is Beautiful A study of economics as if people really mattered by E.F.Shumacher and various books and pamphlets by Ivan Illich.

Those books helped me to shuck off the strait jacket imposed by State School and Military training and as such they had a great influence on my forming of a personal philosophy as opposed to the one that had been instilled by authority.

So the Barefoot Doctors Manual in terms of the philosophy that gave it birth as opposed to its methodology gave me an understanding of what it would take if a nation had to overcome a global disaster .. No technology .. no working hospitals.

Talking of no hospitals Garry, I recall reading a heart rending story of Doctors in a Hospital during the Katrina disaster .. they had to go round and make a decision (No power, water running out, and drugs running out. No sign of rescue)

They had to make the decision as to who would live and who would die. Those that had to die for want of technology were assisted with fatal shots of Morphine to ease them out. I salute their courage and humanity.

I am digressing from your question .. The concept as opposed to the total methodology as outlined in the manual was enlightening for me. This is a book that I would recommend to anyone who has an interest in public health.